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Schrodinger's Rapist: When is uncritical thought ok?

One might speculate that men's behaviour is at least partly determined by what aspects of it women reward and reinforce. I.e., if women didn't **** men who behave like macho ****heads then there would be a less men who behaved in that way.

In a very general sense, there may be some societal expectation for men to be more aggressive or to seek power. Yet the men who get the most respect for this do so quietly. A guy who is always bragging about how tough he is doesn't get respect from women or his peers. Just like a businessman who is always talking about how much he makes doesn't get as much respect as the man who is known to be successful but rarely mentions it.

Women do not reward casual sexual harassment. The guys who yell obscenities from cars, try to cop a feel, or rub up against a woman on the subway don't do it because they get a positive reaction from women.

If there is any reward from rape or serious sexual assault, it is not coming from women or society.
 
Several posts have been sent to Abandon All Hope. While the subject matter of the thread is one that often evokes strong emotions and emotional responses, you must stick to the topic and address the arguments rather than each other, and refrain from personalizing the discussion.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
You know, you took a whole lot of words to say exactly what I said in one paragraph. It can happen, drugs can be used to make it happen, and in my opinion it's still probably less likely than other forms of rape. Did I say men can't be raped? No. And none of what you said above is new to me.
You made the ridiculous and unfounded claim about men being virtually incapable of being raped short of using something like Viagra. That demonstrates an incredible amount of ignorance about the physical realities of male victim rape. It also ignores coercion, statutory rape, and being taken advantage in the situations I outlined.

Now you're changing your tune a bit by calling it "less likely" than other forms of rape when in fact you had called it "improbable" and claiming that it was just not worth inquiring about when interviewing males about rape. Fortunately, experts in the medical and psychology fields are finally realizing that it happens far more than they realize. Unfortunately, people like you still dismiss it with a wave of the hand and make false claims about how physically it is if not impossible, improbable, which creates an environment making it difficult for men to make reports.

And if you still think the woman who wrote the blog is obsessing about the likelihood of stranger rape, perhaps you really need to reread her item v-e-r-r-r-r-y slowly.
I did read her article several times, and that's what I got out of it. Things like, "So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?" set apart in a paragraph by itself for emphasis and her expressing concern about "escape routes" on public transportation kind of give me that impression.

You may interpret her poorly written article differently, but unlike you, I won't tell you how to think and insult you for not seeing the article the same way I do. Ironically, it is you who is demonstrating exactly the kind of red flag behavior against which she warns.
 
You made the ridiculous and unfounded claim about men being virtually incapable of being raped short of using something like Viagra. That demonstrates an incredible amount of ignorance about the physical realities of male victim rape. It also ignores coercion, statutory rape, and being taken advantage in the situations I outlined.

In other posts I have made here [in this thread} I have specifically mentioned male victim rape. I'm aware that it happens and I think it is just as shameful and deserving of condemnation as any other form of violence against a person. I think it should be prosecuted just as vigorously.

However, I'm also aware that a man's ability to get and sustain an erection can be strongly influenced by his emotional state. I would think fear would not conduce. I understand there are drugs that could overcome that fear. I even mentioned that that could be a possible way of forcing a man to penetrate someone else.

If you want to inform me that a man scared ******** is likely to get a hard-on, I'll take it under consideration but I will still be doubtful.

Statutory rape is indeed a different category that I hadn't thought of and you are correct there.
 
Now you can dress it up and claim it's only a probability of being a rapist, but it doesn't matter, it's already too late, you called someone a rapist. Employ your best sophistry, it doesn't matter, the damage is done.

No, you just didn't. Words have meaning. If I say, "The Defendant is an accused murderer," have I called him a murderer? There's a reason why the term is modified.

Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive when it's in the box?

I can only guess why you're having such trouble with this, but it may have to do with not understanding the allusion.


Let me know how saying "potentially" or "Schrodinger" before using a word works out for you. And like I said, feel free and try to rationalize it all you want after you make the initial statement.

If someone called me a Schrodinger's rapist to my face, I would laugh. The women I choose to surround myself would likely understand the allusion and laugh if I used your inelligant phrase. Of course, I already know them, so the uncertainty element is eliminated.

And once again, this fable of running around hurling the phrase at people is purely a construct of your fevered imagination.
 
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However, I'm also aware that a man's ability to get and sustain an erection can be strongly influenced by his emotional state. I would think fear would not conduce.
If you want to inform me that a man scared ******** is likely to get a hard-on, I'll take it under consideration but I will still be doubtful.
You're blaming the victim by claiming that a raped man who was aroused must have really wanted it.
Does victim arousal excuse all sexual assault, or only sexual assault against men?
 
If I'm looking out the window on the bus, it means I don't want a stranger speaking to me. I'm not going to instantly start thinking that I need to escape you because you're probably a rapist, but I will be thinking you're a creepy guy who doesn't know how to read an obvious signal that I wish to be left alone. I'm on the bus to get to work, not to talk to strangers or entertain somebody who's bored.

So, I sit down on the seat next to you and say, "Good morning." According to this woman I have violated you in some way by disrespecting your wishes. If I didn't know before this article what I was doing, I certainly do now, right? Are you, like this author, now planning your escape route should you need to flee?

According to the references Professor Yaffle provided, I might be more likely to be a rapist because they don't respect boundaries like that. Then again, I might be less likely to be a rapist because rapists score lower on the exravert scale, meaning they are less likely to be gregarious or assertive socially.


What? If you speak to me, when I've made it clear that I don't want to speak to you by looking out the window, I will definitely not be smiling or making eye contact. I'll glance in your general direction, give a monosyllabic answer, and then go back to staring out the window with my shoulder turned up even more.
Well, if you're just looking out the window, you haven't made anything clear except that you're looking out the window. If you think that's a clear indicator that you're unwilling to talk, I think you should reconsider that notion. There world's far more complex than that.

If you continue as you describe, you're sending a clearer message that you're not interested in conversation. Guys do this as well, only most of the men I know don't get all freaked out when somebody, male or female, persists. Some people just don't get social cues, and it's annoying.

Are you thinking "rapist" when this happens to you? Are you looking for escape routes?


I think she makes it clear that there are different occasions for meeting women,
In what article? Seems to me you are projecting. The only other situation she describes is at church where the mothers are life-long friends, and that was only to say that this situation is "still not 100% safe. But the odds are pretty good." She doesn't get into any of the things you describe about parties, clubs or other social situations except to say, "nor have you been introduced through mutual friends or drawn to the same activities."

Of course, same activities excludes anything in public because she introduces the rest of the article with, "you want to become acquainted with a woman you see in public." Her admonition is then, "we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted."

Yes, it is overriding her wishes. If I'm sitting back in an open posture, staring straight ahead, that looks completely different from somebody who's hunched in their seat with their arms crossed and shoulders effectively blocking the space in between the seats. It shouldn't be difficult to read that body language.
It happens to everybody all the time. That's not to excuse it but to point out that it's a common and rather benign element of social interaction.

I do think that some of the men here are missing the spirit of this article, which states that women do go about their lives with different risk assessments in mind than men do.
Do you believe that anyone needed to be told that? Now, apparently what I needed to be told is that at least one woman plans escape routes on a crowded bus or subway car. I didn't know that. My advice up to now to any woman in peril is to flee towards a crowd, not away from one. I also had no idea that when I'm standing in line at the grocery store and say, "Is that the Android? How do you like it?" that the woman is thinking, "Are you going to rape me?"

That said, I think her risk assessment is based on a warped perception of reality.

My husband will go anywhere, park anywhere, never worry about who else is out there while he goes about whatever business he chooses to, no matter what the neighborhood or time of day.
Be careful. When I said the same thing about myself, I was accused of "chest beating" and repeated choruses of "I'm glad I'm a man."

I don't think that every man out there is a rapist or is going to assault me, but I put up barriers to protect myself from unwanted attention from strangers, and I avoid potentially risky situations every single day. (Meaning, I never go anywhere alone at night, while my husband does it regularly. I also won't stop at certain places in the evening if I can't get a parking spot near a light. Overly cautious? Oh well.)
The article is not about avoiding risky situations.

Think about the elderly. They're extremely vulnerable to attacks, much more so than me. But I imagine if this were an article called Schrodinger's Mugger telling people how the elderly see strangers, and offering some insight into how best to approach them if you think they need assistance, there would be people here saying that it was an irrational article because old people are more likely to have their grandchildren steal from them.
If this woman had written the article, then I would be told that if an elderly person is "obviously occupied" doing something like figuring out how to reach a poorly situated door handle, that I would be violating their right to be left alone by saying, "Here, let me get that for you."

I've struck up conversations with elderly people on countless occasions, both male and female. In most cases they were previously occupied because, well, most of us always occupied doing something, even if it's just staring out the window in boredom. I can't recall ever being rebuffed, which must mean I don't respect their wishes and just plow ahead without any consideration for the signals they are sending me.

I'm an extravert. I strike up conversations all over the place. The other day I was at Souper Salad with my two sons. Some older person was "obviously occupied" choosing a soup. I was waiting behind her. I said, "You gotta try the clam chowder. I'm on my fourth bowl." A very short "conversation" ensued, which must mean that she wasn't interested in talking to me, right? She must have been planning her escape route out of the restaurant.

Funny thing, though, next time she got up she stopped at my table to tell me that yes, indeed, that clam chowder was excellent and that she was going to get more. She then told me how cute and well behaved my boys were and chatted with them. I, of course, had my boys say, "Nice to meet you" and give their names.

That's the world I want to live in, not one where every innocuous comment carries with it the baggage of sexual or physical assault or one where every person who struggles with social cues is rated on the Rapist Scale. Sure, I recognize that I'm in the 90th percentile for men when it comes to weight and height, and that I'm a chest beating, chili-dog eating, friendly greeting, kindly treating, bully defeating, never retreating, rock and roll man who's kind to children and dogs, but I still understand how others view risk differently.

About 1 in 60 adult women will be raped by a stranger in their lifetime. If we very conservatively estimate one stranger encounter per week, that's 2,500 in a 50 year adult lifetime (another conservative number). That means 1 in 150,000 stranger encounters results in a rape. So, I do consider planning escape routes on a subway car to be a disproportional reaction to that threat.
 
No, you just didn't. Words have meaning. If I say, "The Defendant is an accused murderer," have I called him a murderer? There's a reason why the term is modified.

Yes you have, and that's how it appears on a criminal record. You don't think being falsely accused of murder is a bad thing? Do you think everyone is going to forget because you "modified" it?

I thought you said you were a lawyer and yet you don't know the ramifications of calling someone a murderer? Come on.

Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive when it's in the box?

It depends how long it's in the box and the decay rate ;)

If someone called me a Schrodinger's rapist to my face, I would laugh.

You'd crap your pants if it was a couple cops arresting you on a 5% probability.

You'd lose your mind if your 8 year old niece telling her teacher you were a "Schrodinger's Rapist" because you brushed up against her and wouldn't leave her alone when she was listening to her iPod.

You'd be freaking out if it was a female co-worker telling your boss.

The probability of you "laughing" it off is highly dependent on the situation. This is a serious accusation to be making. Sure we're talking about a mental evaluation, but that can be just as damaging if someone's acting a certain way towards you because they've misinterpreted you and told their friend or co-worker they aren't comfortable around you.

I've admitted the author seems to be rational. It's just that she's being deliberately inflammatory. She's really saying it's for men but selling it to women. I don't know why you've bought it.
 
In other posts I have made here [in this thread} I have specifically mentioned male victim rape. I'm aware that it happens and I think it is just as shameful and deserving of condemnation as any other form of violence against a person. I think it should be prosecuted just as vigorously.
But apparently you don't think that when surveying 8,000 men they should ask about it. You apparently just "know" how rare it is already. We "knew" how rare female rape was for years - just look at the police reports. Fortunately, open minded people started asking about it and learned that over 80% are not reported to the police.

However, I'm also aware that a man's ability to get and sustain an erection can be strongly influenced by his emotional state. I would think fear would not conduce. I understand there are drugs that could overcome that fear. I even mentioned that that could be a possible way of forcing a man to penetrate someone else.
You have no scientific basis to say that a man's penis is not going to respond to physical stimulation. That you persist in this misguided notion despite being shown scientific evidence to the contrary is amazing. Your attitude is implying that if a man does get an erection, his emotional state is conducive to sex, therefore he wasn't really raped, right?

If you want to inform me that a man scared ******** is likely to get a hard-on, I'll take it under consideration but I will still be doubtful.
That's an unfortunate choice of words (scared ********) when discussing male rape. Did you know that men anally raped will often have erections and ejaculate? You didn't answer my direct question: Do you believe that a man forced to allow someone to fellate him will not respond physically? You think the powerlessness and anxiety will keep him flaccid despite an onslaught of stimulation?

Your doubtful attitude is one of the reasons that it goes unreported. The NVAWS reports that about 70% of female rape victims do not report an actual threat of harm and 60% do not report a perceived threat of harm. We have no reason to believe it would be any different for men, so your "scared ********" stereotype for rape at best only reflects a minority.

When it comes to the violent rapes we hear about on True Crime shows, I'm not going to argue that a man is going to be overpowered physically in a back alley, forced to get an erection and then penetrate the perpetrator in the same way that a male perpetrator could penetrate a victim. That's just one type of rape on a broad spectrum of rapes.

Statutory rape is indeed a different category that I hadn't thought of and you are correct there.
You apparently didn't think of coercion either. You didn't think of a man being stimulated in his sleep. You didn't think of a man already engaged in sexual activity and being forced to continue against his will. You didn't think of men being intoxicated willingly and being taken advantage of.
 
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Yes you have, and that's how it appears on a criminal record. You don't think being falsely accused of murder is a bad thing? Do you think everyone is going to forget because you "modified" it?

I thought you said you were a lawyer and yet you don't know the ramifications of calling someone a murderer? Come on.

That's astonishingly sloppy, even for you. It would really suck to be falsely accused of murder. Calling someone an, "accused murderer," does not imply either that the party speaking thinks the person is a murderer nor does it imply false accusation. One can quite easily be an "accused murderer" and be guilty. The point is simply that "accused murderer" is not identical to "murderer."

Here's one that might make your head spin: If I call someone an "acquitted murderer," am I calling them a "murderer?" Strange how modifications of a term carry actual meaning.

It depends how long it's in the box and the decay rate ;)

This is the internet version of an opossum playing dead when danger is present. This is glib, meaningless, and evasive. Understanding the allusion makes your ridiculous claim that the author is calling people "rapist" wholly worthless.

You'd crap your pants if it was a couple cops arresting you on a 5% probability.

You'd lose your mind if your 8 year old niece telling her teacher you were a "Schrodinger's Rapist" because you brushed up against her and wouldn't leave her alone when she was listening to her iPod.

You'd be freaking out if it was a female co-worker telling your boss.

Look at how comically you had to stretch this in order to make it actually harmful. Where on Earth are you getting this nonsense? Who is suggesting that this is appropriate behavior? This is more fantasy from your deviant imagination.

If a cop arrests me because someone told them I was a potential rapist, I might have a lawsuit in the making. Someone "brushing up" against an 8 year old girl could really be a criminal, depending on the specifics.

If my boss fired me because someone in the office told her I was a rapist with no evidence, I would likely have a lawsuit against both of them for wrongful discharge and various other tort actions.

These are vapid, meaningless hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the article or any subsequent debate.

The probability of you "laughing" it off is highly dependent on the situation. This is a serious accusation to be making. Sure we're talking about a mental evaluation, but that can be just as damaging if someone's acting a certain way towards you because they've misinterpreted you and told their friend or co-worker they aren't comfortable around you.

No, it's not a serious accusation, and no one is making it. This is all nonsensical theater on your part.

I've admitted the author seems to be rational. It's just that she's being deliberately inflammatory. She's really saying it's for men but selling it to women. I don't know why you've bought it.

Bought what? What the hell are you talking about?
 
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It is much rarer than male perpetrated rape, but just as potentially emotionally damaging.

While I would agree that it's less common, I disagree with your terminology of "much rarer." Truth is, we just don't know. The NVAWS was flawed because their screening questions excluded:
* Females forcing a male to penetrate her (even statutory rape)
* Either gender forcing a male to penetrate the anus
* Either gender forcing a male to accept fellatio or manual stimulation of the penis even though females were specifically asked about this happening to them.

Yet despite this omission, 3.6% percent of women were raped while under age 12 compared to 1.3% of men. For children, it seems the numbers are much closer than most people realize. Once boys get older (12 to 17), the difference becomes more pronounced (women about 10X as likely), but if you think about it, a boy is in his teen years (not to be crude) finally has some apparatus of a more adult size, so one would presume more interest.

The problem is that researchers don't seem to ask about it. The NVAWS didn't. The common misconception is that a man cannot have an erection in those circumstances unless he's aroused, which probably means a lot of men feel guilty or torn emotionally. They are being told in effect, "Obviously you weren't raped - you had an erection and ejaculated."
 
Women do not reward casual sexual harassment.
Yes, they do, only in many cases we don't term it sexual harassment when it happens. Talk to some guys about their teen and college years. Ask them if they ever had any luck yelling to women, "Show us your boobs!" I've seen it work on more than one occasion. Mardis Gras is full of events like that. The Girls Gone Wild videos show all manner of sexual harassment being rewarded. Go to some wilder clubs and see how many women wear incredibly short skirts with thong or no panties at all dancing on elevated platforms and essentially flashing men. Sometimes guys grope, and the reactions are mixed. If the guy is attractive, he's likely to be rewarded for his contact.

Search Google Videos for Upskirt Club to see some examples. Warning: The videos are not safe for work. If a guy came at you with a video camera, you'd probably tell him to go away. So would my wife. If he lowered it to see up your skirt, you'd be highly offended, and rightly so. But as you will see with just a few seconds of Googling, there is no shortage of women who reward this behavior.

Now, if you want to define "casual sexual harassment" to only be things like rubbing against a woman on a bus, I would agree that it's typically not explicitly rewarded. However, as we discussed in another thread, it's implicitly rewarded by the apparently commonplace silence of the woman. The "reward" is that the pervert gets his jollies without repercussion. I made my feelings on that known by saying that society needs to become conducive to women "making a fuss" loudly and publicly so that the rest of us can shun the pervert.

Somebody in the other thread related the story of a woman accepting a drink from a man and having him put his hand up her skirt. Casual sexual harassment, right? Is it always unrewarded? Absolutely not. Sometimes it's a precursor to a sexual encounter. It's sexual harassment if she's not interested. Some women I know would always been taken aback by that, which is fine. Other women I know don't think anything of it, even if they have no interest at all in the man. They move his hand away and don't think much more about it unless the guy persists.

Thinking back to my days with my ex, when I was younger and not a father, I can't recall any specific occasions of groping. I do recall numerous occasions of men trying to get a look up the skirt or down the blouse. Casual sexual harassment? Yep. Was it rewarded? Yep. My wife was somewhat of an exhibitionist. I remember going to a restaurant on Thanksgiving where she repeatedly gave pantie shots to the teenage boy at another table after she caught him eying her lasciviously. And if you whistled or hooted at my ex, there's was a good chance she'd swing her hips or strike a pose. If somebody yelled, "Show me your boobs!" he stood a halfway decent chance of getting a look, sometimes just the bra, sometimes with the bra lifted.

You can draw whatever conclusions you want from this, but the reality is that human sexual-social interaction is complex and not the simple, black and white issue some want us to believe.
 
Here's one that might make your head spin: If I call someone an "acquitted murderer," am I calling them a "murderer?" Strange how modifications of a term carry actual meaning.

You seem to be missing the point again as usual. Are you going to hire the "aquitted rapist" or the guy with the clean record? If you're a lawyer you know the burden of proof rises in proportion to the seriousness of the crime. There's no reason the same thing shouldn't apply when we determine the probability of someone committing the crime. If you want to consider a person a murderer or a rapist the same standards should apply because of the consequences of doing so.

This isn't rocket science.

If a cop arrests me because someone told them I was a potential rapist, I might have a lawsuit in the making. Someone "brushing up" against an 8 year old girl could really be a criminal, depending on the specifics.

Yah, and that's why we're making a case against this authors faulty use of statistics. This is the Skeptic People's Court. :D

The fact you are trying to make a case out of a young girl misinterpreting the authors poor standards of what is or isn't a rapist it pure handwaving. Kids say things all the time without realizing the consequences and this is just such a case. Nice dodge though ;)

If my boss fired me because someone in the office told her I was a rapist with no evidence, I would likely have a lawsuit against both of them for wrongful discharge and various other tort actions.

Who said he was going to fire you? I'm just talking about people treating you differently. That happens all the time. Rumors are very powerful things.

These are vapid, meaningless hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the article or any subsequent debate.

They do, you just aren't capable of comprehending them. I don't really expect you to acknowledge anything here. You're just trolling, I realized that long ago. I also know you aren't an idiot so this is getting through to you, you just won't admit it. It's all good.

Bought what? What the hell are you talking about?

Bought nothing dude, it's what we scholars call a "figure of speech".

"It's raining cats and dogs"

"The coast is clear"

"falling in love"

"break a leg"

"You're burnt"

etc. etc.

You should just Google these things if you don't know :D
 
I think TraneWreck and 3bodyproblem should just have sex and get it over with already. You know you wanna.

:p
 
You seem to be missing the point again as usual. Are you going to hire the "aquitted rapist" or the guy with the clean record? If you're a lawyer you know the burden of proof rises in proportion to the seriousness of the crime. There's no reason the same thing shouldn't apply when we determine the probability of someone committing the crime. If you want to consider a person a murderer or a rapist the same standards should apply because of the consequences of doing so.

This isn't rocket science.

Amazing, just amazing.

It's hard to accurately explain all the things that are wrong with your posts. You leap between arguments so randomly and bizarrely.

First, we're discussing whether adding a modifier to a word can change the meaning. You have said time and time again that "Schrodinger's Rapist" is indistinguishable from "rapist." Thus, if you call someone a "Schrodinger Rapist," you're accusing them of being a rapist.

This is silly and absurd. "Acquitted murderer" does not mean "murderer."

Instead of dealing with that point, that a modifier changes the meaning, you make an astonishingly dumb point and say that an acquitted murderer might have a difficult time finding employment.

That's a total non-sequitur. The issue is whether a modifier means something different, it clearly does, so you engage in these inanities.

Is a "wrongly accused thief" the same thing as a "thief?"


Yah, and that's why we're making a case against this authors faulty use of statistics. This is the Skeptic People's Court. :D

The fact you are trying to make a case out of a young girl misinterpreting the authors poor standards of what is or isn't a rapist it pure handwaving. Kids say things all the time without realizing the consequences and this is just such a case. Nice dodge though ;)

What does that have to do with anything? Somehow a kid misunderstands a phrase and that means something? If a kid accused someone of being a "Schrodinger's Rapist," adults should get together, understand what the phrase means, and behave accordingly.

A kid can mistake anything, so what?

Who said he was going to fire you? I'm just talking about people treating you differently. That happens all the time. Rumors are very powerful things.

Again, this is just silly. How is someone misunderstanding a phrase and starting a rumor relevant? They can do that with any phrase.

If someone said of a co-worker's skill, "He's one bad mother," does an interpretation of that as a negative assessment change the meaning of the phrase? No, it's just a misunderstanding.

And once more, at no point has anyone advised calling people "Schrodinger's rapist." This is your fantasy.

They do, you just aren't capable of comprehending them. I don't really expect you to acknowledge anything here. You're just trolling, I realized that long ago. I also know you aren't an idiot so this is getting through to you, you just won't admit it. It's all good.

That's called "projection." Now, a child might think I'm talking about showing a movie, but it's actually referring to a psychological phenomenon.

Yeah, real tough to grasp the brilliance of a kid not understanding a phrase. So deep and insightful.

Bought nothing dude, it's what we scholars call a "figure of speech".

[...]

You should just Google these things if you don't know :D

I understand the phrase. I'm asking what you think I "bought." Your statement made no sense, like most of what you produce.

This is your MO. We're about two posts away from you just being directly obscene.
 
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And here I thought you were going to show your true canuckness by offering to spoon with him instead.

Pfft.

We've been nose to nose, that's kinda like Eskimo kisses.

There's been a lot of blubbering too. :D
 

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