School shooting Florida

[smartcooky]

A summary of Trump's plan to stop school shootings:

www.lalibre.be/galerie/le-dubus-53182ad335704b2d2766d026

Sums it up perfectly...

The Trump/NRA solution to guns in schools, is more guns in schools.... sheer madness!

I used to be a teacher and I am also ex-military, I own guns and I know how to handle them. If I was a teacher in an American school, and I was asked to carry a gun, I would absolutely refuse. If this stupid NRA/Trump plan were to ever come to pass and we ended up with teachers carrying guns in my school, I would resign on the spot and either find another vocation, or move to a country where sanity prevails, and there are sane and sensible gun laws.

 

[Steve]

Well he was completely outgunned, it's quite possible that if he didn't become a casualty himself, he might easily have missed and hit innocent people.

What would you have done in his position?

90-seconds after hearing the shooting starting, you get to the building, and hear semiautomatic rifle fire.

Your only firearm is a pistol that you trained with but have never used in action, and the accurate range is maybe a few scores of feet.

You do know that the rifle will significantly outrange you, and that the shooter has prepared enough to set off the fire alarm.


You won't know any more than that.


If you stay outside, you might be able to stop the shooter leaving the building. If you go in, you might shoot innocent people, you might get shot, you might struggle to find anyone.

As has been said upthread, going in with a pistol is basically an action movie.

At Colombine, the armed guard did exchange shots with the shooters but failed to hit them.

"OMG!! The shooter has a semi-automatic and I have only a hand gun!! It would be best if I just stay outside and listen to him shoot more kids!!"

The kids and teachers in the school who actively tried to protect others around them put this man to shame.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I believe the current trend in LE, with regard to active shooter response, is for a single officer to go ahead and attempt to neutralize the shooter, and to not wait for backup.

This is my understanding too ... this is how the guy with the air rifle got shot in Walmart

 

[Nessie]

A UK firearms instructor was interviewed on Radio 2 today and said a handgun vs someone with an automatic and body armour on is a complete mismatch. A number of people agree with that assessment.

So, armed security and armed teachers are expected to go into battle with a deranged youth at a huge disadvantage.

That is presently the most likely "solution" to the problem, as per the POTUS and NRA.

Volunteers for school suicide squads, please step forward....

 

[lobosrul5]

"OMG!! The shooter has a semi-automatic and I have only a hand gun!! It would be best if I just stay outside and listen to him shoot more kids!!"

The kids and teachers in the school who actively tried to protect others around them put this man to shame.

I've been waffling on whether the school resource officer deserves any blame. But... yeah he does. That was his job and duty. He had training, this wasn't a $10/hr "rent-a-cop" he was a sworn peace officer. Saying he was outranged in an indoor situation (as a poster did above) is rather unlikely. His only defense to me would be if it turns out department policy really was to wait outside for backup.

 

[sadhatter]

What he described is a police officer's actual, literal job when an armed person is attacking people.

Bear in mind that unarmed students and teachers inside the school, having complete knowledge of the threat and of their inability to counter it, willingly interceded with their bodies to give other students a better chance of survival.

There job isn't too take a bullet their job is to stop the situation. "Go in with a toothpick and a bad attitude" may make for great film but in real life he would have thrown away his life.

Nice to see I want centering that previous poster out though. Plenty of people seem to think action movie logic works in real life.

 

[smartcooky]

With the simplicity of how so many people think it is no wonder that problems every other developed country has solved are unsolvable in the US.

THIS! Usual gun nut responses involve directly trying to solve the symptom instead of attacking the underlying cause

The kids understand what the problem is. The adults can't, not because the adults are incapable, but because they have had their brains rotted by ideological soiling.

And THIS!

 

[Ron Swanson]

Well he was completely outgunned,...

Ken Vickers didn't feel outgunned when he took out the Canadian Parliament Hill Shooter under similar circumstances.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...range-after-diving-around-pillar-9818365.html

 

[dudalb]

Interestingly the Gestapo weren't classically part of the government. The more I read on the rise of the Nazis the more it becomes clear that an American equivalent wouldn't be perpetrated by the government but by a paramilitary organization composed of largely uneducated, underemployed men that drink up conspiracy theories.

Basically the NRA.

The Gestapo was definently part of the government. I think you are confusing them with the Storm Troopers (SA).

 

[dudalb]

So this isn't true? Or you just don't like it?


The NRA promotes the gun industry, and the gun industry pays it a lot to do so. And if the NRA's power comes from votes, they are the votes of ignorant, one-issue voters who have swallowed the NRA's fantasy that "the guv'mint" is gonna do something terrible to them, and they'll be able to fight back with their AR15s.

For most of its history, the NRA was truly a sportsmen's organization that promoted responsible hunting and outdoor recreation. That changed in the '70s, much for the worse for America -- but great for the gun makers and dealers.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...rverted_the_meaning_of_the_2nd_amendment.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-10-07/how-the-gun-lobby-rewrote-the-second-amendment
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nra-vs-america-20130131

That is another reason I quit the NRA:I decided they were more interested in protecting the interests of the big gun companies then the interests of individual gun owners.

 

[Steve]

There job isn't too take a bullet their job is to stop the situation. "Go in with a toothpick and a bad attitude" may make for great film but in real life he would have thrown away his life.

Nice to see I want centering that previous poster out though. Plenty of people seem to think action movie logic works in real life.

Exactly, and this man did nothing to stop the situation. Apart from hearing a semi-automatic the man did nothing to asses the situation. Yes, he may have been shot, but it is equally likely that he could have helped without being shot. He is supposed to be trained professional. The shooter was not.

It has nothing to do with "movie logic".

He was purely looking out for number 1. The real life scenario is that kids were getting shot and this man chose to do nothing.

 

[sadhatter]

Did you miss the part about him being a sheriff's deputy for many years and a military vet? We aren't talking Mallcop here.

So you are saying he understood tactics and combat at a fairly high level.

Then why the **** are you civsplaining how you know more about it than he does?

And just FYI, training only goes so far someone wielding a rifle when you have a pistol is always going to be at a severe advantage. This isn't Fallout where you can be as good with a pistol as someone is with a rifle by selecting the right skills.

Real life. Not die hard, not fallout, not call of duty. If your only frame of reference is fiction, change that and come back to the debate.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Robert Vaughn - Magnificent 7.

 

[Steve]

So you are saying he understood tactics and combat at a fairly high level.

Then why the **** are you civsplaining how you know more about it than he does?

And just FYI, training only goes so far someone wielding a rifle when you have a pistol is always going to be at a severe advantage. This isn't Fallout where you can be as good with a pistol as someone is with a rifle by selecting the right skills.

Real life. Not die hard, not fallout, not call of duty. If your only frame of reference is fiction, change that and come back to the debate.

Enough with the "fiction" red herring. Deal with the reality. Kids were being shot and this man did nothing.

 

[sadhatter]

Ken Vickers didn't feel outgunned when he took out the Canadian Parliament Hill Shooter under similar circumstances.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...range-after-diving-around-pillar-9818365.html

And?

Are you saying the tactical situation was so similar that this tactic should have been used? If so what pillar should he have used? And how do you know that the florida shooter was near a pillar?

Either you have a really good inside scoop, or you are making crap up. Which is it?

 

[Wayward son]

I believe the current trend in LE, with regard to active shooter response, is for a single officer to go ahead and attempt to neutralize the shooter, and to not wait for backup.

Perhaps you can post some evidence for that. Earlier today I already posted the name of the police document produced post-Sandy hook that said that the trend is for police to not wait for Swat teams or other specialized teams to show up, which could take an hour or more, but that most policies do not call for a lone officer or even a few officers to go in unless it will take a while to for enough officers to arrive to create a contact team (generally about 4 officers).

"While all active shooter policies emphasize the importance of a fast response, policies also recognize that it is safer for officers to assemble a “contact team,” typically with four officers, who respond together to find and neutralize the shooter(s), rather than allowing officers to respond on their own. Many policies make a compromise by calling for the creation of contact teams, but allowing flexibility to use fewer officers if it appears that a full contact team cannot be assembled quickly."

The supporting officers did arrive in a couple minutes in this case.

 

[dudalb]

I've been waffling on whether the school resource officer deserves any blame. But... yeah he does. That was his job and duty. He had training, this wasn't a $10/hr "rent-a-cop" he was a sworn peace officer. Saying he was outranged in an indoor situation (as a poster did above) is rather unlikely. His only defense to me would be if it turns out department policy really was to wait outside for backup.

This. When he signed on, he knew that risking his life was a part of the job.
It's like a Fireman refusing to go into a burning building.Going in was part of what you signed on for, and what they are paying you for.
More and more police departments are trainging their officer in responding to the situation of an insane shooter,where there is no time to wait for the SWAT team to arrive. If you don't want to do that, don't sign up for the job.
ANyway, I am really uncomfortable in defending cowardice . I agree with Winston Churchill that courage is a virtue on which all the other virtues depend.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, he would still be allowed to shoot unarmed people if he thinks they might be drawing a gun. It is only when actual guns are in play that he is not required to shoot.

And of course now that the teachers will have hand guns they will be expected to do exactly what this man would not.

I think the intent is deterrence, not gun battles between teachers and intruders. I would think the idea for teachers would be to only engage the shooter if he is engaging you. Protect your classroom or group of students. Don't go seek out and engage the shooter.

We guard banks, and we guard airports, and we guard lots of other places.
We even guard grocery stores at night, and museums. Lots of places that we go and
gather are guarded.

We don't yet know what department policy was for the situation.

What were the officer's orders for such a situation?

We can infer that he did not follow some policy by the fact that he was suspended from duty.

 

[dudalb]

Perhaps you can post some evidence for that. Earlier today I already posted the name of the police document produced post-Sandy hook that said that the trend is for police to not wait for Swat teams or other specialized teams to show up, which could take an hour or more, but that most policies do not call for a lone officer or even a few officers to go in unless it will take a while to for enough officers to arrive to create a contact team (generally about 4 officers).

"While all active shooter policies emphasize the importance of a fast response, policies also recognize that it is safer for officers to assemble a “contact team,” typically with four officers, who respond together to find and neutralize the shooter(s), rather than allowing officers to respond on their own. Many policies make a compromise by calling for the creation of contact teams, but allowing flexibility to use fewer officers if it appears that a full contact team cannot be assembled quickly."

The supporting officers did arrive in a couple minutes in this case.

Both CNN and MSNBC reported that more and more police depatments are training officers to go in without backup if a large number of shots are being heard. There is literally no time to wait for backup.

 

[dudalb]

I think the intent is deterrence, not gun battles between teachers and intruders. I would think the idea would be to only engage the shooter if he is engaging you? Protect your classroom. Don't go seek out and engage the shooter.

We guard banks, and we guard airports, and we guard other places.
Yet we don't guard our children.

We don't yet know what department policy was for the situation.

What were the officer's orders for such a situation?

We can infer that he did not follow some policy by the fact that he was suspended from duty.

There is a difference between having a thoroughly trained police office on school grounds as security, and passing guns out to teachers........

And Deterrence often does not work if you are dealing with a batcrap crazy individual, which is what almost all of these mass shooters are.....