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School makes kids stupid?

Of course, you have had an interesting history. If it weren't for you guys, England might be a Catholic country. One third of the Irish flag refers to you.

Median, not average.

Congratulations for being the 10th smart*ss since I've started posting here to point out that a commonly used idiom is not technically correct. You've shown that you've taken basic statistics. Thanks for being pedantic. ;)
 
I'm not a big Stossel fan. He seems to me like the Michael Moore of the right. But like Moore he sometimes makes a good point, even if he has a dishonest way of making the point.

Private schools would have a lot more freedom to innovate and improve themselves then public schools do. Its almost impossible to suspend a student these days unless they bring a gun or drugs to school or something equally agregious. Private schools wouldn't have that limitation. Those students who were causing problems in those clips would not last long at a private school.

And private schools have total freedom when it comes to how they teach. They aren't beholden to some school board, aren't forced to try every lame brained new teaching gimmick that comes along. No discovery learning. No "new" math. Not if what the teachers doing is affective.

There are definately some advantages there to a more privatized system.


Doubtful. Here's a phrase: "the customer is always right". The private school's customer base is the world's most powerful school board: not only are they not elected or qualified, but they're responding to personal investment to the tune of thousands of dollars. They vote just like a school board, except their votes are measured in dollars.

This is why teachers in the private system are much more stressed: their disciplinary options are very restricted. They can't expel a kid (they'd lose a customer). They can't document incidents (the school's salespitch is that kids will stop misbehaving, so they have to have paperwork to prove it).


Hold the students accountable, but understand that disciplinary problems begin and end with parents. That's why some schools are worse than others: the neighbourhoods have different family demographics. You can move teachers around from school to school, but the schools will perform the same. Moving kids from school to school makes little difference in their performance, unless it coincides with a change in parental involvement (and it often does).


Private schools vary widely. Here in the Lower Mainland, they range from poor to excellent. The worst I'm aware of is a basement operation with five students, a priest who thinks he's an expert in everything (1), and no tuition. The best is probably St. George's with hundreds of students and a very high entrance requirement. They turn away 80% of applicants. The parents are screened. Repeat: the parents are considered the best predictor of student success.


And this is not surprising. Consider my friend's role in Vancouver: she designed and obtained funding for a special education program for kids with behavioral problems. There are two streams: the ones with organic problems, such as ADD/ADHD, Tourette's, schizophrenia, &c, and a second stream for non-organic disciplinary problems. A pilot program showed excellent results, and it was opened up to five highschools, where 300 kids were identified as those who would benefit. Only one parent wanted their kid in the program, everybody else refused to accept that their kid needed help. The program was cancelled.


A hundred years ago when the education system was private, people thought going public would solve behavior problems. Now that it's public, people think privatization is the answer. The problem has always been that the kids learn behavior at home, and it's just getting worse.

I coach a swim team, and I have watched my proportion of attention and time dedicated to 'class management' increase from trivial to over 50% since the 1980s. I have gone from kicking out one kid per year to one kid per workout. I filed a police report against one in December, and the parents stand behind the kid (2). These statistics are typical for teams across Canada. I'm glad I'm not in soccer, because they've gone from 1 parent-parent assault per year in Canada to approximately twenty per weekend. The parents bring knives to the games, and think this means they're setting a good example.

The system is doing its best to work with the good parents and work against the bad parents. Unfortunately, these don't make good TV because these incidents are protected by ordinary confidentiality. Teachers would be fired on the spot if they went to the media with specific examples.



(1) Anecdote: my housemate was interviewed by this guy to take on the science curriculum and the challenge was to teach the three laws of thermodynamics in terms of the Trinity. My friend, who is a physics major, corrected the guy to tell him that there are four laws of thermodynamics, and the guy said he'd have to omit one from the program or the Trinity thing won't work. My friend turned down the offer.

(2) Their theory: I have an irrational grudge against the kid, so I snuck into his house, stole a knife from the kitchen, and planted it into his swim bag, then made up the story about threats. Nobody believes them, but if I were the kid, I'd interpret this as carte blanche.
 
Congratulations for being the 10th smart*ss since I've started posting here to point out that a commonly used idiom is not technically correct. You've shown that you've taken basic statistics. Thanks for being pedantic. ;)


I'm going to get your six on this one. There are three types of 'average': mode, mean, and median. They could all be referred to as average. Also: in a large enough normalized sample, such as test scoring, the mean and the median usually coincide anyway.
 
Only one parent wanted their kid in the program, everybody else refused to accept that their kid needed help. The program was cancelled.

That's downright disgusting. We have waiting lists to get into these programs where I live. I have to wonder what the heck was the "sales pitch" in Vancouver?
 
I'm going to get your six on this one. There are three types of 'average': mode, mean, and median. They could all be referred to as average. Also: in a large enough normalized sample, such as test scoring, the mean and the median usually coincide anyway.
Yeah, and there are different types of means, like geometric and harmonic. But it's usually taken to be arithmetic, just as average usually means mean.
 
That's downright disgusting. We have waiting lists to get into these programs where I live. I have to wonder what the heck was the "sales pitch" in Vancouver?

I think it's a mix: some are holding out for the programs their quack psychiatrists are pushing. eg: attachment therapy, hypnosis, sweat lodges... ain't gonna happen. There are some lawsuits where parents are trying to get quackery (vitamin therapy) introduced and publicly funded to treat their kids' ADHD, and they reject this program out of principle.

Others are offended that their 'perfect' kids were identified as problems. None should be surprised, since part of the criteria is that the kid must have had at least one police report filed, or three incidents that required parental involvement.



There *is* acceptance of a lot of special programs in Vancouver, just not this one which was targetted toward behavior. For example, dyslexic kids have a program, mentally challenged and autistic kids have an integrated program &c. That isn't controversial. This program was a new module, based on the existing framework.

It's for the 18-year-old who just walks into the classroom and locks herself in a cubpoard and has no program, unfortunately. Or the kid who cuts herself in class.
 
I think it's a mix: some are holding out for the programs their quack psychiatrists are pushing. eg: attachment therapy, hypnosis, sweat lodges... ain't gonna happen. There are some lawsuits where parents are trying to get quackery (vitamin therapy) introduced and publicly funded to treat their kids' ADHD, and they reject this program out of principle.

Others are offended that their 'perfect' kids were identified as problems. None should be surprised, since part of the criteria is that the kid must have had at least one police report filed, or three incidents that required parental involvement.



There *is* acceptance of a lot of special programs in Vancouver, just not this one which was targetted toward behavior. For example, dyslexic kids have a program, mentally challenged and autistic kids have an integrated program &c. That isn't controversial. This program was a new module, based on the existing framework.

It's for the 18-year-old who just walks into the classroom and locks herself in a cubpoard and has no program, unfortunately. Or the kid who cuts herself in class.

My son was immediately put into a program that specifically targetted behaviour because of his Tourrettes and ADHD diagnosis. There were no other programs that addressed his problems with impulsiveness, anger, frustrations, and inability to show empathy towards others, or even acknowledge their need for personal space, etc. Nothing else addresses what these kids need as far as time to learn at their pace, time to deal with outbursts during the day, a space to go and chill if need, etc. There are IPPs that address strengths and areas where there is needed improvement, and goals set with realistic ways to reach the goals.

It's scary there is no program in Vancouver. Is that the case? Parents are going to waste time and money and quackery, but that is going to drive the kids up the wall, ouch.

Heck, these programs are 99% non-drug interventions. A lot of kids are taking no meds if the parents feel they have to go "all natural". But at least the kids are in small classes getting individual attention. They learn impulse control, anger management, how to take responsibility for their actions, and how to make goals for when they are done high school. They even learn social skills and get issues like depression addressed if they need it.

It's downright disheartening if Vancouver, of all places, has NO program to address behaviour. We pretty much had no choice with my son, since he disrupted classes so much, if not by trying to drive his desk around, then by his noisy tics.

Might I say, it's no wonder gangs are notoriously troublesome in that area?
 
It's downright disheartening if Vancouver, of all places, has NO program to address behaviour. We pretty much had no choice with my son, since he disrupted classes so much, if not by trying to drive his desk around, then by his noisy tics.

You asked if there were "no" programs in Vancouver (be mindful that Vancouver school district is actually a relatively small district in the Lower Mainland, which has dozens of school districts)

As for ADHD/Tourettes, these are organic illnesses, not personality disorders. There is a program framework for these in Vancouver, and there are even respected standards against which the programs must be held accountable. It's the purely behavioral problems, mostly personality disorders, that are at risk.


Might I say, it's no wonder gangs are notoriously troublesome in that area?

Gangs are a different problem - that's criminal behavior, and the school district works with the police to counter that. A school district doesn't really have the skillset or scope to develop programs for this type of problem.
 
As for ADHD/Tourettes, these are organic illnesses, not personality disorders.

Kids with ADHD/Tourettes, etc. have behavorial problems. They are not "personality disorders", but what are "personality disorders"?.

There are kids with behavioral problems that don't have "organic illnesses", and these kids are in the same programs with the kids here that do have organic illnesses because the behavioral problems need to be addressed in similar ways. They all respond to the various programs and treatments available, but particularly to the small class sizes and individual attention they get.
 
Kids with ADHD/Tourettes, etc. have behavorial problems. They are not "personality disorders", but what are "personality disorders"?.

The ones described as such in the DSM-IV. Pretty much anything with "personality disorder" in its title. Examples are narcissism, histrionic, OCPD, avoidant, &c.



There are kids with behavioral problems that don't have "organic illnesses", and these kids are in the same programs with the kids here that do have organic illnesses because the behavioral problems need to be addressed in similar ways. They all respond to the various programs and treatments available, but particularly to the small class sizes and individual attention they get.

I would say that that's only sometimes true, and this was the point of the proposed program. The argument is that they may benefit from a specialised program.

I didn't produce the example with the intention of provoking an argument. This thread is not a debate about a cancelled Vancouver school district initiative. My point is that support is very dependent on parental involvement, and I'm going to leave it at that.
 
In my experience in the American Public School System, I've found that it's a lack of power the teachers have that really foul things up. Kids like to run rampant in the classrooms out of some psychological need and the teachers are powerless to stop them: if a teacher takes pains to correct a child's behavior, they get the riot act from the superintendent and the always-outraged parents who dish out abuse to the usually-underpaid teacher who's not under tenure and who probably gets frustated with the system and just gives up. The same rule applies to putting the kids to the next grade. Since it's expected, it takes a lot for a kid not to go to the next grade or otherwise the parents and the school board come in as a deus ex machina to save the child's hide, outside of the child's ability. As a teacher, how are you supposed to deal with this childish mentality of not being able to control your class under threat of termination? And all it teaches the child is that if you pressure your parents, they'll make you get your way at a detrimental cost to you later down the road.

Plus the disruptive behavior continues onto high school. In my grade alone there were a bunch of wiseasses who would disrupt because they could and it wasn't until they started failing classes and going into strict remedial studies that I finally started learning something. In this aspect, the only thing Americans learn at schools is how to con someone and avoid doing any actual work. Many of my former high school peers are now working at menial jobs and wasting their lives away, simply because at some point they weren't told to shut up and learn something. While I could blame them for not taking responsibility for their own lives, maybe the right teacher at the right time could have changed that to some extent. We'll never know.

Another issue I had was with the work given. Or rather, the LACK of work given. I'm an avid reader and in high school I read plenty of books on my own. Classwise, however, I read about four. Reading a book was considered this very big deal that some people could not get into and it was accepted for some reason. Why? I haven't a clue. Apparently reading a fiction book and doing a simple report on what it contained--nothing really stretching as deciding on a theme or such--is considered hard work. Huh? This is unexcusable and stinks of laziness. Reading one book over the course of a whole school year in high school just boggles my mind now. It's such a low standard. Surely our kids need to be challenged more. It seems that we're holding down our kids with the fear of low expectations. It's just shocking that we don't expect more from our kids when they're at their most vulnerable educationally.

So, I don't see it wholly as a money issue. I just think we tend not to think that highly of our children as responsible amongst other issues. Many things are to blame, but teachers aren't really that much a part of it.
 
In my experience in the American Public School System, I've found that it's a lack of power the teachers have that really foul things up. ......

So, I don't see it wholly as a money issue. I just think we tend not to think that highly of our children as responsible amongst other issues. Many things are to blame, but teachers aren't really that much a part of it.

You make a lot of good points...a fair amount of the lack of power of teachers is due to the high density of lawyers.

glenn:boxedin: I refuse to dumb-down my classes.
 
Thanks. And good for you not dumbing down your classes. I wish more teachers would take the time to stand up for their principles instead of just letting the parents keep their delusions about their little monster being a good student just because it makes their life so much easier.
 
I'm not a big Stossel fan. He seems to me like the Michael Moore of the right. But like Moore he sometimes makes a good point, even if he has a dishonest way of making the point.

Private schools would have a lot more freedom to innovate and improve themselves then public schools do. Its almost impossible to suspend a student these days unless they bring a gun or drugs to school or something equally agregious. Private schools wouldn't have that limitation. Those students who were causing problems in those clips would not last long at a private school.

And private schools have total freedom when it comes to how they teach. They aren't beholden to some school board, aren't forced to try every lame brained new teaching gimmick that comes along. No discovery learning. No "new" math. Not if what the teachers doing is affective.

There are definately some advantages there to a more privatized system.


Very true. I was kicked out of 3 private highschools. I had the desire to learn but I just liked to do it standing persay,
 
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Very true. I was kicked out of 3 private highschools.

Were you sent back to public school?---we usually pick up students that are sent packing. Most of the time I can refocus a student that has been reasigned, but not always...you can lead a horse to water, but shoving their head under enough times to force them to drink drowns the horse and can be exhausting.

glenn:boxedin:
 
Yes for my last year of highschool. All in all I graduated with like a 2.1 or so but I never really wanted to learn until I was about 19. Not because of fear of not getting a good job or feeling stupid. I just woke up one day wondering why it took light about 8 min to get here from the sun and then more questions ensued after that and eventually I obtained my degree in meteorology and am currently working on a 2nd degree in science and tech management from devry.

I just can't stop reading now its silly where as when I was 16 I utterly hated books, science and math.
 
(I'm kinda biased in this matter, having been raised by a greatgrandmother, who used to be one hellishly tough Russian teacher in her earlier years. And who was married to a history teacher... but that's another story)

In my honest opinion, it's up to the parents to instill the love for learning (and books) into their kids. Education of the younger generation (and cost) is definitely a reason for extended family to live with the basic mom/pop unit. It's a piety that it is not all that common in the States.
Aversion to books in particular might be attributed to the widespread of television/video games, stuff that makes it hard for people to focus on something as "boring" as reading on their free time. (Especially if they were introduced to books AFTER being introduced to the TV set.) In fact, I'll go as far as saying that once a person finds an appreciation for reading, with an occasional book thrown at them by a knowing relative, they can pretty much teach themselves everything else they need to know.

Grades 8 through 12 should be like college, imo - you come in and learn for the sake of learning, emphasizing on subjects that you are interested in. Speaking from personal observation/experience, such an environment (with a 0-tolerance for drugs, alcohol and sex on 'campus') not only formed better in-school community, but quickly weeded out people who were uninterested in furthering their education.

Note to self:
Need to homeschool kids for the first decade of their lives, if I'll ever have any. :p
 
In my honest opinion, it's up to the parents to instill the love for learning (and books) into their kids. Education of the younger generation (and cost) is definitely a reason for extended family to live with the basic mom/pop unit. It's a piety that it is not all that common in the States.
Aversion to books in particular might be attributed to the widespread of television/video games, stuff that makes it hard for people to focus on something as "boring" as reading on their free time. (Especially if they were introduced to books AFTER being introduced to the TV set.) In fact, I'll go as far as saying that once a person finds an appreciation for reading, with an occasional book thrown at them by a knowing relative, they can pretty much teach themselves everything else they need to know.

I agree: learning should be encourage by parents. I know mine read to me every night and then took me to the library and let me get books. And thanks to that whenever I wasn't in class I would still read and such. It's the best way to go, honestly.

Grades 8 through 12 should be like college, imo - you come in and learn for the sake of learning, emphasizing on subjects that you are interested in. Speaking from personal observation/experience, such an environment (with a 0-tolerance for drugs, alcohol and sex on 'campus') not only formed better in-school community, but quickly weeded out people who were uninterested in furthering their education.

I'd agree but for a slightly different reason: the last four years of any American education has this mythical status to it which is detrimental to learning. It's supposedly the 'best years of your life' according to parents in which their child goes through the 'good times' of just exploring their boundaries and all other stuff that is mere nostagia for people no longer in their teens. Now while being young is great in some respects, it fosters the idea that the only purpose of high school is to socialize. This is wrong: in many cases high school is a pretty good indicator about your future and spending all that time doing nothing but making floats and ignoring any learning is just pointless. It's possible to do both, but the focus in this tradition is more to concentrate on just having fun and not doing anything to really deserve it. It's not fair to the people involved as once they're out of those four years, all they do is go to work and start the slow crawl to a middle life crisis in which they wonder what happened to their lives, and then start a romanticized nostagia in which the circle starts itself over again. Or worse, they believe college is just an extension of that and then blow a few thousands of dollars by going to college merely to party and going into debt with the mistaken belief that either college is too hard for the 'common man' or too hard for them, which is a great tragedy since many people are able to go through college if they know and comprehend what it really entails.
 
Yes for my last year of highschool. All in all I graduated with like a 2.1 or so but I never really wanted to learn until I was about 19. Not because of fear of not getting a good job or feeling stupid. I just woke up one day wondering why it took light about 8 min to get here from the sun and then more questions ensued after that and eventually I obtained my degree in meteorology and am currently working on a 2nd degree in science and tech management from devry.

I just can't stop reading now its silly where as when I was 16 I utterly hated books, science and math.

Glad to hear everything worked out. In the teaching industry, we would say you turned into a "life-long" learner. Always a goal. It is also why teachers really can't tell with absolute certainty if a student is going to succeed or not. You were on what I would call the "knife edge" and you fell to the good side.

glenn:boxedin:
 

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