School makes kids stupid?

[jimlintott]

Our only consolation is that the system still isn't as screwed as the American one, for now.

This is what has me baffled. The two systems look virtually indentical to me. Are there some fundamental differences that I'm not seeing?

 

[Jorghnassen]

Go up in the thread. The funding and curriculum decisions are more decentralized in the US, and the priorities for spending are different (sports related spending is a big thing in the US), and I do believe American bureaucracy has a natural tendency to take a bigger share of the money pie than Canadian bureaucracy. I mean, the Canadian gun registry fiasco and sponsorship scandals are drops in a bucket compared to your usual US pork-barrel spending...

 

[jimlintott]

It has to be more than just squandering money. As was pointed out in the program many succesful schools are working on smaller budgets. Maybe they see more of that money. A weak curriculumn makes some sense but how much weaker is it really?

If it really is as simple as money and standards then it should be easy to fix. First step is just admit there is a problem. Someone might have to accept some blame.

 

[Jorghnassen]

How much weaker, I don't know, but I can give you one anecdote. In some places, students don't see negative numbers or fractions by the end of grade 7 (someone I know teaches at Lower Canada College, an independent school with a ~$12K tuition, had such a student in one of her 8th grade math class, that student wasn't dumb or anything, and probably went to private school in the US). I've known other Americans coming to study in Canada for university saying similar things (and in one case, saying US history courses are all lies made to foster patriotism, in fact that particular guy was saying the entire education system was geared towards making mindlessly patriotic American drones).

 

[TimmyBerry]

One has to admit that American public schools are one-sided, though. No world history till 8th grade, anyone?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I don't know if money has much to do with Alberta schools. We've had teachers go on strike In the last few years due to low pay and large class sizes. We do seem to have some common sense folks on school boards though.

 

[Renfield]

Holy cow. Good point.

But I would think that for a school to take 'vouchers', it would have to be accredited by the state. Any school that had a single ID/Creationism class should/would be deemed as 'unacceptable', and thus no vouchers could be used at it (not only because the government would be giving money to a religious institution, but also because such a school wouldn't meet basic science standards)

No, i don't think so. At least where I live. Religious schools are part of the voucher program and can teach what they always have. They don't have to make any changes to their curriculum to take part.

 

[Art Vandelay]

It thought it was rather suspicious that Stossel never told us just what this test was that he was using to compare different countries. Isn't that an incredibly important piece of information? Was he just lazy, or is he hiding something? He acted like there was some sort of objective measure of academic achievement, which was ridiculous. He also implied that poor academic achievement is the same as being "stupid", which is... well, stupid.

And what's up with that woman who blames the schools for the fact that her 18 yo son can't read? Yeah, the schools should have taught him, but unless he is mentally retarded or something, he and his mother share at least some of the blame. What ever happened to personal responsibility?

It would also mean that the 42% of Americans who reject evolution would be free to demand that it be removed from their children's science curricula.

42%? Cite?

 

[Euromutt]

One has to admit that American public schools are one-sided, though. No world history till 8th grade, anyone?

Well, speaking as a product of the Dutch education system, until (the equivalent of) 7th grade, everything I learnt in history class pertained to some extent to the Netherlands; if it didn't involve the Netherlands in some way, we didn't learn it. The only coverage of the Roman empire was "life under Roman occupation," the only coverage of the England related to wars in the 17th century, the only coverage of Spain was the Eighty Years' War, and if most the royal family hadn't spent the second world war in exile in Canada and the Canadian 1st Army hadn't liberated most of the Netherlands in 1944-1945, Canada would never have gotten a look-in. And bear in mind, we're talking about a small country here.

 

[homer]

Can't say school ever made me anything . I left at 15 with no qualifications of any sort . I went back at age 39 -40 when I was ready to learn and moved on to the Open University a few years later .
I think education is wasted on the young anyway who find it not 'cool' to learn anything . Of course at age 16 you know everything anyway so why bother to pursue higher education .

 

[bignickel]

No, i don't think so. At least where I live. Religious schools are part of the voucher program and can teach what they always have. They don't have to make any changes to their curriculum to take part.

Ugh. That's pretty much why I used "should/would".

Well, so much for vouchers...

 

[Jorghnassen]

I don't know if money has much to do with Alberta schools. We've had teachers go on strike In the last few years due to low pay and large class sizes. We do seem to have some common sense folks on school boards though.

Money does make a difference:

What to do with kids who lashout, drive their desks around the class, and throw books when frustrated? Put them in a class with only 6 kids and two teachers, that's what. Not a "special ed" class, but a class where normal education curriculums are taught, and the kids get a lot more attention when they need it.

To be able to do this, you need a seperate classroom and 2 teachers (who might find their salary low nonetheless) for six kids. In many places that have endured budget constraints for a while, you simply don't have the room or personnel to do this. And common sense of the school board is limited by how much money they get from the government. When resources are scarce, they'll avoid having to tenure anyone as much as possible, reduce the teaching staff to a minimum, and even go as far as sending kids to less crowded schools, even if it's a long way from their neighborhood/town...

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Money does make a difference:


To be able to do this, you need a seperate classroom and 2 teachers (who might find their salary low nonetheless) for six kids. In many places that have endured budget constraints for a while, you simply don't have the room or personnel to do this. And common sense of the school board is limited by how much money they get from the government. When resources are scarce, they'll avoid having to tenure anyone as much as possible, reduce the teaching staff to a minimum, and even go as far as sending kids to less crowded schools, even if it's a long way from their neighborhood/town...

I am grateful the schools exist, even if space is limited. It will explain why other class sizes are larger, the largest in the country in fact. We've achieved a balance with the same or less money that other provinces have available to spend on Education.

Alberta, with the greatest amount of school choice as well as the highest international test scores, spends considerably less per pupil than do Ontario, Manitoba, Quebec or British Columbia. It also has one of the highest student/educator ratios in the country.

http://www.educationforum.org.nz/documents/private_education/EdInvest_canada.pdf

Post secondary education is a major beef here. It's very expensive, and no wonder why:

Amongst the provinces in 2002/03, government
expenditures on post-secondary education were
highest in Manitoba ($509), Quebec ($504),
Newfoundland ($480) and Saskatchewan ($472).
Expenditures were lowest in Ontario ($324) and
Alberta ($354).

http://www.caut.ca/en/publications/educationreview/educationreview6-1.pdf


It's sad a province that is viewed as having so much doesn't do more in the education area, especially since we have a shortage of skilled workers.

 

[Jorghnassen]

I am grateful the schools exist, even if space is limited. It will explain why other class sizes are larger, the largest in the country in fact. We've achieved a balance with the same or less money that other provinces have available to spend on Education.

And the moral of the story is: it's not how much money you spend, it's where it goes (or where it gets cut when the budget is reduced). It does appear Alberta has been wise on where to put its money in elementary and secondary school education (is their ministry of education run by actual teachers instead of lifelong politicians and pedagogues?).

 

[hgc]

Read this funny critique of John Stossel's performance at The Daily Howler. Shame on ABC News.

http://dailyhowler.com/dh011706.shtml

an exerpt:

What does Stossel say in the passage we’ve quoted? He says he gave “parts of an international test” to these two groups of students—but he never says what the test was. In the same vein, he never gives us any way to judge who these two groups of kids really are. In the case of the American students, he says they attend an above-average school—but that, of course, doesn’t mean that the students themselves are above average. (Nor can we verify his claim about their school, since he never names it.) And how about the Belgian students? How average (or above-average) might they be? There is absolutely no way to know. Stossel says nothing about them or their school; they may be the brightest students in Belgium, attending that nation’s most selective school. In short, this episode is like a ludicrous parody of the way information is actually gained. It’s astounding to think that ABC News would even consider airing such nonsense. Indeed, if it’s “Stupid in America” you want, the names of this show’s producers—and its clowning correspondent—should go at the top of your list.

 

[Red Siegfried]

Maybe slightly off topic, but I'm going on a rant ...

Here we go again. I can't quote numbers on this, but I'm convinced the whole "America's schools are going to Hell in a handbasket" non-debate is just another instance what happens whenever it's a slow news day.

America has one of the best education systems in the world. Could it be better? Of course. How badly do we want it to be better? How many changes are we willing to make and how much money are we willing to spend to get results that will still cause some people to think are not up to their standards anyway? Is it worth it for what I believe would be very small gains anyway?

My real opinion on this isn't that America's schools are failing. If anything, I think maybe more parents are failing to impress upon their children the importance of learning than in the past. And I'm not even sure about that. Everyone likes to say that back in the good old days things were better than they are now. In most cases, it's just the opposite.

My point is arguing that America's schools are failing is about as useful as arguing that "Bush is a bad/good president" or "gays should/shouldn't be allowed to marry" or "taxes are too high/too low" or "we should/shouldn't ban smoking in some places." It's just another political football the talk radio types and the mainstream media both like to trot out whenever they're too lazy to come up with another more relevant topic.

So no, I just don't believe there is a significant problem with our schools in America. There always have been kids who didn't do well and there will continue to be. Thankfully, the number is relatively low.

Remember, half of all people are stupider than average.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Well, speaking as a product of the Dutch education system, until (the equivalent of) 7th grade, everything I learnt in history class pertained to some extent to the Netherlands; if it didn't involve the Netherlands in some way, we didn't learn it.

Of course, you have had an interesting history. If it weren't for you guys, England might be a Catholic country. One third of the Irish flag refers to you.

Remember, half of all people are stupider than average.

Median, not average.

 

[epepke]

Well, speaking as a product of the Dutch education system, until (the equivalent of) 7th grade, everything I learnt in history class pertained to some extent to the Netherlands; if it didn't involve the Netherlands in some way, we didn't learn it. The only coverage of the Roman empire was "life under Roman occupation," the only coverage of the England related to wars in the 17th century, the only coverage of Spain was the Eighty Years' War, and if most the royal family hadn't spent the second world war in exile in Canada and the Canadian 1st Army hadn't liberated most of the Netherlands in 1944-1945, Canada would never have gotten a look-in. And bear in mind, we're talking about a small country here.

Just for purposes of comparison, in New York City by 6th grade we had learned about the Boxer Rebellion and about Aztec, Inca, and Mayan pre-Columbian cultures. The courses weren't called history courses, though: they were called "social studies."

 

[Hindmost]

This is such a complex issue.

Stossel provided anecdotal evidence which really can’t translate into any conclusions. He certainly wanted the impression that freedom to choose is the only solution to improving schools in the USA. Logically then, our entire government is mired in a mediocrity monopoly.

I would be curious how other countries handle disruptive students. I have had some kids that have really challenged my patience. (It only takes one student to disrupt a class) It is not easy to remove a student from class or school and keep that student removed long-term. There are so many due process procedures. Removing such students does help raise class and school testing averages. I have noticed a strong correlation between student behavior and parent behavior—in general, the more intolerant the student, the more intolerant the parent.

I would have liked to see the test and why it was considered so difficult. I may have too many students happy to receive a C or a D, but I also have some great over-achievers that would love the challenge. It is the underachieving C or D students that are most frustrating—they may have great ability, but no ambition. What those students will achieve in the future is like balancing on knife edge--I just can't tell which way they will fall. And this is where I think we need to shift our culture to a strong emphasis on education. It would make underachieving student obsolete. Too many people don’t think education is really needed--particularly in math and science.

glenn

 

[Jorghnassen]

Ah, but the pedagogues decreed that you should put everyone in the same class, and that you shouldn't give academic lessons but let the kids discover everything, and that giving marks is bad for self-esteem, etc...

/disrupting kids are a problem, but the only way you can use to deal with them now is through medication...