School bullies many years later.

[Ysidro]

Wait, there are people who are actually surprised others might take some level of satisfaction in the suffering of those who caused them suffering?

 

[Cainkane1]

Wait, there are people who are actually surprised others might take some level of satisfaction in the suffering of those who caused them suffering?

oetic justice is very pleasurable. Some bully getting some of what he gave out would have suited me just fine. Some punk getting a fat lip, a black eye or maybe a mild concussion would have been justice if nothing else. Ok there are stories of troublemakers getting killed or dying early etc. In my case I'd have them get whats comming to them and then if they straightened out I personally would be ok with that. I have to say this though. I didn't cry when I heard that these trouble makers had gotten themselves killed although if I had my way they would still be alive as long as they behaved themselves.

 

[ConspiRaider]

oetic justice is very pleasurable. Some bully getting some of what he gave out would have suited me just fine. Some punk getting a fat lip, a black eye or maybe a mild concussion would have been justice if nothing else. Ok there are stories of troublemakers getting killed or dying early etc. In my case I'd have them get what's coming to them and then if they straightened out I personally would be ok with that. I have to say this though. I didn't cry when I heard that these trouble makers had gotten themselves killed although if I had my way they would still be alive as long as they behaved themselves.

It's understandable.

I still go by my all-purpose philosophy that everyone should live to be 104 years or more, and at least 97 of them in good, vigorous health. That includes you, you son of a bitching bullies.

Even so: A small part of me wants to give a few of the guys what they gave me. One of the kind, thoughtful activities they dreamed up for me was to stuff me inside an empty hall locker, then run a pencil through the lockhole, thereby preventing my escape. Brilliant strategists they were, it would happen just as classes began, so all the classroom doors would be closed and the chances of my discovery would be greatly elongated. There I was: In the hallway, jammed inside the locker, trying to get enough leverage inside it to bang the metal and make some noise.

Twice, I was in there for 20 or 30 minutes. The trick is to try and position your mouth against the few air slats they have at the top and hope you can take in enough oxygen to prevent your own suffocation. Lots of gasping, that I remember clearly. Another nice way to die in there is from overheating - I also remember how nice and toasty it got inside.

I wouldn't want to do this for 20 or 30 minutes to one of them - maybe 1 minute, max. Just so they could get a sense of that predicament.

 

[Segnosaur]

However, keep in mind that:
- Many of the anecdotes here are situations involving kids in their teens, well past the age where at least the "basics" of empathy should be understood (at least according to the references I have found). I wouldn't feel satisfaction to see the downfall of the "former 5-year old kid who got into fights" as I would the "former 15 year old who used to beat people up"

- Some of the anecdotes here have been about rather extreme situations... bullies who were actually resorting to physical violence. Even if an individual's sense of empathy hasn't been refined enough (when they're a teen) to understand how things like bad words can hurt, they should be refined enough to know that punching/etc. hurts.

Your whole argument seems to be based on the argument that "the bullies didn't know better". So, what's your magical age when you think a person should "know better"? Is 18 years the cut off?

I don't know. I honestly don't know. I cringe at stuff when I think about stuff I said and did when I was 18 and I would hate for people to hold the 30 year old Fox to what 18 year old Fox did.

Well there are 2 issues here...

- What exactly did you do? As I've been trying to emphasize, there is a difference between the general 'dickishness' that students might exhibit towards each other, and the type of extreme situations we are referring to. Did you (for example) hit innocent people to the point of causing physical harm? Did you (as one anecdote mentioned) stuff someone in their locker and jam the door shut?

- Have you made any attempts to make amends, if not to the former victims, but at least to society in general? (Given your avatar/nick, it appears you've been involved with military service, which is very respectable vocation, so I'd say you have.) Not all former "bullies" have made any amends. (I recall one of the anecdotes where a former bully met a victim at a class reunion and didn't even admit that they had done anything wrong.) I personally think its a different situation if someone realizes what they did was wrong and tries to make up for it in some way, as opposed to simply stopping their bullying ways.

I work with bullies now. I had bullies as a kid. But I certainly wouldn't laugh at anyone for living in a trailer park no matter how much of a d!ck they were or are because a part of that empathy that we're supposed to have over the bullies is not to do that kind of thing.

Bottom line: If we're going to lord over our moral superiority over bullies, past or present, we need to have some first. I find the two to be mutually exclusive.

Well there are 2 key differences to the bully and the person that might gain satisfaction from a former bully's downfall...

- The bully themselves took an active role in causing the victim harm. This is different than a situation where a former victim enjoys the downfall of a former bully that they did not take an active part in, but are simply an observer at this point.

- The downfall of a bully is, in a sense, justice. (I do want to emphasize I'm referring to more 'karma', since their downfall may not be a result of their actual bullying actions.) They did something wrong, and now they are 'paying the price'. The former victim did nothing to deserve such punishment.

Its like the difference between seeing a criminal arrested/jailed and seeing an innocent person kidnapped. Even though both cases involve an individual 'suffering', the criminal is responsible for his own fate.

 

[Segnosaur]

Actually, I did not make any comment regarding the former bully who had the mentally handicapped child. Nor do I wish to comment... Its wrong to favor the birth of a mentally handicapped child because such a child is innocent and potentially suffers more than anyone else.

I haven't gone into details about what exactly I consider a "fair" outcome for a bully, simply because I don't exactly have one. Much like any "justice" system I would hope that the "punishment fit the crime"... a bully who actually beat people up would deserve more "karmic retribution" than one who simply teased people.

You agree that it is wrong to take satisfaction in a former bully giving birth to a mentally challenged child. So there is a point where that satisfaction has gone too far.

Welll duh... that's what I meant by "Let the punishment fit the crime".

To me, justice is when the punishment fits the crime, to a degree where the offender actually has an opportunity to learn from it.

Then your definition of "justice" is wrong.

From the dictionary: Justice: the administering of deserved punishment or reward.

There's nothing in that definition that requires "learning". All that's required is that they receive "punishment". What you're referring to is more "redemption", something that often goes along with justice, but not always.

And, i do want to emphasize than I'm talking about Justice in a "karmic" sense, since a person might not get punished for specific actions.

If they are not going to make the connection, then it's irrelavent. An individual who leeches off other people's finances eventually runs out of suckers to take care of them. They hit rock bottom and eventually learn, "Oh, I have to take care of myself, that means working." That's justice.

Nope, that's not "justice". After all, there's no real "punishment" for him being a leech for all those years. (Instead he ends up where the "good" people were, except with the benefit of several years of, well, being a leech.)

What if they had a moment of clarity? What if one day your bully was cruising down memory lane and realized how cruel he or she was and made it a point to change and become a better person? Let's say that person got a degree and a good paying job, got married, and is a good family person. All the things they got away with, back in school, are still left unpunished but they work hard and earn what they have? Do they still deserve bad karma?

Depends on the situation.

Is the person actually making any sort of extra effort to atone for his bad actions (if not to the person he victimized, then at least to society in general)? Or is he just living a "normal life", doing no better or no worse than anyone else?

A person that has a "moment of clarity" and decides to make up for his bullying actions by (for example) doing charity work or saving puppies from burning buildings is, in my opinion, making up for their bad actions (since such actions require a certain amount of sacrifice). On the other hand, a bully who terrorizes kids for years and then ends up with a normal job/family life/etc. isn't really the recipient of "justice" since they left a wake of "victims" that ultimately they never bothered to make up for.

I will put it like this; if I saw a news story, reporting that Bin Laden was found dead I would be pissed because I would have prefered him caught and brought to justice. Your hypothetical is ridiculous because the second one; the one where he gets off with zero consequences, wouldn't be known to us, until he died of old age.

Nope, its not really ridiculous, because even though we wouldn't know his immediate situation, we'd still eventually know the final outcome... a long life filled with his stash of dirty magazines and multiple wife.

Without a magic ball to look into the future, there is no knowing that Bin Laden was going to get away with it. While he was roaming free, there was still always the hope of him getting caught and brought to justice. If he choked on a pretzel, all hope is gone. So unlike you, I do not take what I can get. Do you get it now?

Yeah, I get it.... when faced with a hard choice with only 2 options, you'd rather weasel out of it and try to come up with some 3rd way which I've stated is not always a possibility.

It's apparent; to you, it's about retribution, revenge, not righting a wrong. I gave an alternative. I think that aggressive children need help and I think it would serve society better, in the long run, to focus on that and not about making you feel vindicated.

Except its not an alternative. Once again, you are doing your best to weasel out of things.

Unless of course you have some sort of magic wand or time machine that can be used to correct the actions of each and every bully in the world.

Do you have one of those?

 

[Cainkane1]

I actually found two bullys on facebook from my Highschool. I did not try to friend them but I did message them asking one if he had rubbed spit on anyone lately and I asked the other if he had bashed anyone in the head with book lately. Neither answered.

 

[ConspiRaider]

In a slight adjustment on the thread title, School Bullied Many Years Later...

Bully Flip-Flop: I witnessed something that I never believed, back then, could happen. A bully amongst the ring of bullies changed from one day - permanently - to the next. He went from a bully of me to a protector. Whaaaaat?

Just as bullies strategize against you to devise creative methods of torment, the flip side is that you strategize against them. Your strategies are those of avoidance, preventive measures, minimizing the damage - survival.

The bully ring - maybe a half dozen douchebag guys - would lie in wait outside the Electronics classroom. The classroom door was always locked because of the equipment inside, so we'd have to hang out in front of that door for minutes at a time before the instructor got there. That boredom is what got the bullies to hit on the idea of stuffing me in an empty locker.

So, I had to come up with a counter strategy: I'd hide behind a door leading into the food line of the cafeteria. A friend of mine in the class acted as point man. He'd go down the hall and around the corner and watch for when the instructor got there and the door was open. If I could make it into the classroom - no locker time that day. The bullies were not going to drag me out of the class with the instructor present. Anyway he'd come to the end of the hall and signal me when coast was clear. I'd come out from my hiding place and scoot as fast as I could down that hall around the corner and inside the classroom. Usually - it worked. When they caught on, they actually tried to get him into a locker - but he was too big. You had to be a small fry pipsqueak like me to fit inside.

One day, a bully in the ring was walking past the lunchroom door and saw me cowering there, waiting for the go signal from my friend. CRAP! Found out! He asked what I was doing and I simply told him. But... He became a person that day, an actual human being. He told me to follow him and he'd fight off the other guys so they couldn't get me in the locker. Right. Like I'm going to believe that! HAHAHAHA! Yet I read in his demeanor that he meant it. Well that's exactly what he did. I came around the corner and there they were, waiting. He stopped them all from getting to me. If I saw that guy today? I'd clap him on the back and thank him all over again.

Seeing Red: I think we all heard the story as kiddies about the mother who lifted the back end of a car off her child. I never believed it then because of course it made no sense. No one is that strong.

But this 'seeing red' - and it only happened twice in my life, close together - was the illuminator that maybe that mother/car story wasn't so crazy after all.

I have a phenomenally sharp memory - somewhat photographic - but those 5 or 10 seconds when I saw red? A blank spot. I don't know exactly what I did on The Day The Bullying Stopped Dead Cold. I remember just before, then the 'red curtain' coming down, and then immediately after.

I don't have a clue as to how much a person's strength is magnified by that huge, sudden infusion of adrenaline which causes the 'seeing red' effect. But whatever that figure is - that is what scared the bejesus out of the bully on the receiving end. I remember his eyes - big as saucers. My action was the very last thing he ever expected. And I never even hit him. But I did grab him and move him a good distance, maybe 25 or 30 feet - all with my 'weaker' left arm (I'm righthanded).

Reading People: I'm good at this, perhaps better at it than most. We all have an innate ability to read folks with variable effectiveness. My alleged ability to do this well has to be a result of year by year by year bullying. As a survival strategy, I had to become proficient at identifying friend or foe, growing up. I had to pay very very close attention to people's eyes, face, body language, vocal inflection - the gamut. It was simply necessary to get through a day with little or no damage inflicted. General intent is what you're after. The details - no. That comes from actually getting to know people on a more intimate level.

That ability stays with you as an adult. I remember getting a bad read on George Bush in 1999, when he was running for President. I knew he was lying but so what? That is what politicians do - it is a job requirement. Bush's lying was different and I got a danger signal from it. Just an "Oh no" kind of feeling. Didn't get that from Al Gore. Didn't get it from John McCain or Obama or Hillary - their deceptions were garden variety politician stuff.

 

[epepke]

Oh, you mean _that_.

?

Can you really mean _thaat_?

Yes.

The bullies themselves like it, but the bullied ones not so much,

Being the bullied, they aren't in a position of power.

and the public opinion is against it,

What is your evidence for this assertion?

My evidence against it is that bullying doesn't go away, even though people know how to stop it, and this condition has maintained throughout my entire life.

I want to be extremely clear about this, so there is no further misunderstanding. I think that the populace goes through these occasional paroxysms of hand-wringing about bullying, usually hot on the heels of some public event that involves extreme results of bullying of a member of a group they identify with. Then they go back to voluntarily and enthusiastically rewarding the behavior of bullies, though it is probably more accurate to say that they never stop, even when they wring their hands.

Almost nothing about politics, industry, religion, or any form of social interaction makes the slightest bit of sense without this realization. In spite of this, there is immense resistance to acknowledging this, which not-even-very-ironically also perpetuates bullying.

so in democracy the public opinion is what creates a need to stop it. Or philosophically, it being wrong creates a need to stop it.

I find this assertion rather charming.

The list of things that are "philosophically" wrong, even obviously, which will never be stopped under a democracy in a million years is endless.

 

[Cainkane1]

I'm not trying to revive this thread but I would like to add something before its forgotten about forever.

I have a friend who had polio. He's partly crippled with a deformed foot and ankle. He's had this condition since he was younger than six. Well when he was 13 he was a skinny kid with a heavy metal brace on his leg. He was playing touch football and he made an excellant catch. Well a tough guy deliberately slammed into him from behind knocking him to the ground and giving him a bloody nose. He was bleeding profusely and it took awhile before the addle brained school principal to help him.

Instead of saying something to the pusher he got on my friend for saying oh god stop the bleeding. The objection being the taking of the lords name in vain I guess. Ok this happened 51 years ago and he still talks about it. He hated the guy who did it until the guy died last year. My friend seemed elated that he had actually outlived the bad guy.

I told my friend that it was probably a stupid accident as the larger kid was only 13 himself. This didn't sit too well with my buddy and we haven't spoken since. This is the same guy who kicked me out of his house because I said organized christian prayer shouldn't be in public school.

The guy that slammed him was 63 years old when he passed away. He was married with grown children and he had grandchildren. The amount of hate directed at this person was a bit much given the passage of so much time. However.

This is why bullying should be curtailed with consequences for the bullys. The incident has caused my friend lifelong problems and it shouldn't have happened.

 

[RedRatSnake]

Most of the problems i had with bully's was in 5th or 6th grade back in the early 70's, i grew up in South Boston, MA and when i got to JR High Busing had started and it was just a free for all with fights in every room of the school every day, by the time i got to 12th grade i had worked my way up too being a bully, But in my case it was something i had too do in order to survive.

Because of that atmosphere most of the guys i knew got into heavy crime or the Irish mob and were killed or are in prison, I made it cause i joined the Army and that straightened me out and i never looked back.

Married 31 years 3 kids Always working, life ain't easy but i ain't complaining

 

[Jr1985]

One of my bullies turned into a creepy religious person, who now works as a youth pastor. I confronted him on facebook and he apologised, but I wasn't completely convinced he had really changed. Sociopaths like positions of power, right?

 

[Ziggurat]

One of my bullies turned into a creepy religious person, who now works as a youth pastor. I confronted him on facebook and he apologised, but I wasn't completely convinced he had really changed. Sociopaths like positions of power, right?

You don't have to be a sociopath to be a bully. I have no idea if your acquaintance is or not, and not every conversion is genuine, but the fact that he was a bully doesn't indicate that he is a sociopath.

 

[sgtbaker]

Welll duh... that's what I meant by "Let the punishment fit the crime".


Then your definition of "justice" is wrong.

From the dictionary: Justice: the administering of deserved punishment or reward.

You are giving two different answers, then. Do you want the punishment to fit the crime or do you want bad things to happen? What part of the word "deserved" in the definition are you not wrapping your head around?

There's nothing in that definition that requires "learning". All that's required is that they receive "punishment". What you're referring to is more "redemption", something that often goes along with justice, but not always.

Punishment for their actions. I added the learning because that's what justice is, to me, which is why I put "I think..." A bully, ten years after high school, crashing his or her dream car, is not going to make him/her think, "Oh I should have been nicer to people in school." Deserved punishment offers up the opportunity to learn from one's mistakes. If there is no way for an individual to make the connection between cause and effect, it's not worth it.

Nope, that's not "justice". After all, there's no real "punishment" for him being a leech for all those years. (Instead he ends up where the "good" people were, except with the benefit of several years of, well, being a leech.)

So you don't think hitting rock bottom is punishment enough? I was an enabler to a leech. I stopped running to his rescue and he had to pull himself out of the hole he dug. Watching him struggle and not helping him was the hardest thing I ever had to do because the conditions were atrocious.

Depends on the situation.

Is the person actually making any sort of extra effort to atone for his bad actions (if not to the person he victimized, then at least to society in general)? Or is he just living a "normal life", doing no better or no worse than anyone else?

A person that has a "moment of clarity" and decides to make up for his bullying actions by (for example) doing charity work or saving puppies from burning buildings is, in my opinion, making up for their bad actions (since such actions require a certain amount of sacrifice). On the other hand, a bully who terrorizes kids for years and then ends up with a normal job/family life/etc. isn't really the recipient of "justice" since they left a wake of "victims" that ultimately they never bothered to make up for.

For a person to actually understand, in clarity, the results of their actions enough to make a change, they would have to feel some sense of guilt. Guilt is not an easy thing to live with. I find that more than enough.

Nope, its not really ridiculous, because even though we wouldn't know his immediate situation, we'd still eventually know the final outcome... a long life filled with his stash of dirty magazines and multiple wife.

Yeah, I get it.... when faced with a hard choice with only 2 options, you'd rather weasel out of it and try to come up with some 3rd way which I've stated is not always a possibility.

It's not very easy giving a realistic answer to a fantasy land question but I gave you an answer. I would rather him not choke on a pretzel and tried to explain why. Shouting weasel because you don't like the answer, does not make it so.

Except its not an alternative. Once again, you are doing your best to weasel out of things.

Unless of course you have some sort of magic wand or time machine that can be used to correct the actions of each and every bully in the world.

Do you have one of those?

Yes, actually spending time trying to figure out the cause of aggressive behavior is a so unrealistic and ridiculous. It's not going to undo damage done or prevent future bullying. It's far better to obsess for twenty years, stalk your bullies and cheer when they go bankrupt because of a stock market crash, that's certainly is a more productive approach.