School bullies many years later.

[Eddie Dane]

regarding empathy:

I'm sure some kids lack it.

But others used empathy in some warped way.
I mean that they used their social intelligence to bully in a particularly refined way.
Some did it so well, I almost admired it.
Typical example: bring a kid to the verge of crying and then saying something like 'Ooh, don't cry now', at which point the kid would break out in uncontrollable sobs.

It may not be empathy, but demonstrates understanding of the victims emotional life.
They don't feel what the victim feels, but they know.

Perhaps an integral part of sadism, now that I think about it.

 

[JJM 777]

the argument that "the bullies didn't know better". So, what's your magical age when you think a person should "know better"? Is 18 years the cut off?

Some people will never know better. The society must react, at an age as early as necessary. I know a few 3 years old brats who regularly hit smaller kids at the sand box. Their parents stand by and maybe say something, but fail to actually retaliate. No punishment follows from above. Other parents cannot legally do anything else than take their own kid away from there.

 

[Segnosaur]

Yes, it says I'm an an individual who desires justice but realizes that in our flawed world people don't often get punished for their specific malicious actions. So, as I said before, I "Take what I can get".

Justice, what was the definition? the administering of deserved punishment or reward, so there are people out there that deserve to give birth to severely mentally handicap children? You'll take pleasure in that because you will take what you can get?

Actually, I did not make any comment regarding the former bully who had the mentally handicapped child. Nor do I wish to comment... Its wrong to favor the birth of a mentally handicapped child because such a child is innocent and potentially suffers more than anyone else.

I haven't gone into details about what exactly I consider a "fair" outcome for a bully, simply because I don't exactly have one. Much like any "justice" system I would hope that the "punishment fit the crime"... a bully who actually beat people up would deserve more "karmic retribution" than one who simply teased people.

You are, of course, assuming that my feeling of happiness is due "insecurities/anger caused by bullying". I'm sure there are plenty of people reading this thread who were never bullied, harbor no residual anger, yet still are happy when a bully has problems, because they see it as a form of "karmic justice".

Well, yes, but people who have dealt with the past and moved on...

Define "move on".

I don't "sit around hoping my former enemies have had misfortune". I never look them up. I never even give them a thought.

That doesn't mean that its "wrong" to hope that whatever bad deeds they've done have somehow come back to bite them in the ass.

I am sure there are people like that but there are also people that don't take pleasure in the misfortune of others.

The term "misfortune" implies "bad luck"... something happening to someone who didn't bring it on themselves.

A "bad person" having bad luck is not someone I would consider having "misfortune".

You're totally missing the point... the choice is not between bin Laden choking on a pretzel vs. bin Laden captured/put on trial. (Given a choice I'd prefer the second option.) The choice is between bin Laden choking on a pretzel and bin Laden going totally free with no bad things ever happening to him. Given those 2 options, I'd much rather see him choke.

I get the point, I will rephrase that, I would hope that he lived long enough to see justice.

Then obviously you don't get the point... because once again, the option is not between him "choking on a pretzel" and "seeing justice". The choice is between "choking on a pretzel" and "having absolutely no problems".

Why exactly do you keep dragging in the "see justice" thing when I've absolutely made it clear that its not an option in this hypothetical situation?

Similarly, I would like to see bullies taken care of at the time of their bullying. I'd like to see them expelled, jailed, or whatever because they punched/threatened someone. But since that doesn't always happen, I will take the second-best option and enjoy their misfortunes.

I would like to see discipline and some therapy; get to the root of the problem.

I would like that too. But as I pointed out.... it doesn't always happen.

You are certainly the master of bringing up irrelevant arguments, aren't you...

 

[Halfcentaur]

I've known and seen bully behavior of one form or another in more people than I haven't. I think it's natural group behavior, but there are many different shades of it. Some bully out of shame or personal emotional pain, some bully out of cruelty and vindictiveness, some bully because they are the target of bullies. When someone laughs at a group of nerds LARPing or COSPLAYING and think they should get a life, that's the thought process of a bully. I've known a few absolute sociopaths that would be better of dead than living, but for the most part I think anyone can find them self suddenly on the other side of things and can be considered a bully. Thankfully most of us have the empathy to resist these behaviors. I was pretty low on the social ladder most of my child hood, I was shy and moved several times a year to a new school for most of my life.

 

[Ziggurat]

regarding empathy:

I'm sure some kids lack it.

 

[sgtbaker]

Actually, I did not make any comment regarding the former bully who had the mentally handicapped child. Nor do I wish to comment... Its wrong to favor the birth of a mentally handicapped child because such a child is innocent and potentially suffers more than anyone else.

I haven't gone into details about what exactly I consider a "fair" outcome for a bully, simply because I don't exactly have one. Much like any "justice" system I would hope that the "punishment fit the crime"... a bully who actually beat people up would deserve more "karmic retribution" than one who simply teased people.

You agree that it is wrong to take satisfaction in a former bully giving birth to a mentally challenged child. So there is a point where that satisfaction has gone too far. It was that story that got me involved in this conversation. To me, justice is when the punishment fits the crime, to a degree where the offender actually has an opportunity to learn from it. If they are not going to make the connection, then it's irrelavent. An individual who leeches off other people's finances eventually runs out of suckers to take care of them. They hit rock bottom and eventually learn, "Oh, I have to take care of myself, that means working." That's justice. If, instead, that individual hits a point where they get a benign but hideous growth on their face, as much pleasure as those who felt taken advantage of might take in the individual's misfortune, there's nothing to learn from that, it's not justice.

Define "move on".

Accepted that it's in the past and live life unconcerned at what misfortune may come to those that wronged them, in the past.

I don't "sit around hoping my former enemies have had misfortune". I never look them up. I never even give them a thought.

That doesn't mean that its "wrong" to hope that whatever bad deeds they've done have somehow come back to bite them in the ass.

What if they had a moment of clarity? What if one day your bully was cruising down memory lane and realized how cruel he or she was and made it a point to change and become a better person? Let's say that person got a degree and a good paying job, got married, and is a good family person. All the things they got away with, back in school, are still left unpunished but they work hard and earn what they have? Do they still deserve bad karma?

The term "misfortune" implies "bad luck"... something happening to someone who didn't bring it on themselves.

A "bad person" having bad luck is not someone I would consider having "misfortune".

So a total bitch giving birth to a mentally challenged child, is that a bad person having bad luck or is that misfortune? Remember, I was talking about misfortune having nothing to do with the wrongs they committed.

Then obviously you don't get the point... because once again, the option is not between him "choking on a pretzel" and "seeing justice". The choice is between "choking on a pretzel" and "having absolutely no problems".

Why exactly do you keep dragging in the "see justice" thing when I've absolutely made it clear that its not an option in this hypothetical situation?

I will put it like this; if I saw a news story, reporting that Bin Laden was found dead I would be pissed because I would have prefered him caught and brought to justice. Your hypothetical is ridiculous because the second one; the one where he gets off with zero consequences, wouldn't be known to us, until he died of old age. Without a magic ball to look into the future, there is no knowing that Bin Laden was going to get away with it. While he was roaming free, there was still always the hope of him getting caught and brought to justice. If he choked on a pretzel, all hope is gone. So unlike you, I do not take what I can get. Do you get it now?

I would like that too. But as I pointed out.... it doesn't always happen.

You are certainly the master of bringing up irrelevant arguments, aren't you...

Irrelevant arguments? You said

I'd like to see them expelled, jailed, or whatever because they punched/threatened someone. But since that doesn't always happen, I will take the second-best option and enjoy their misfortunes.

It's apparent; to you, it's about retribution, revenge, not righting a wrong. I gave an alternative. I think that aggressive children need help and I think it would serve society better, in the long run, to focus on that and not about making you feel vindicated.

 

[epepke]

Some people will never know better. The society must react, at an age as early as necessary. I know a few 3 years old brats who regularly hit smaller kids at the sand box. Their parents stand by and maybe say something, but fail to actually retaliate. No punishment follows from above. Other parents cannot legally do anything else than take their own kid away from there.

Why? For the bolded part.

The society seems not to react. That seems to be what most people want. There was bullying when I was a kid, and there is bullying now. People don't seem to care much. Occasionally, there it a burst of moral outrage, but nothing much seems to happen, except that bullies get put in positions of authority ostensibly to prevent bullying, and (big surprise!) they enable it.

 

[Cainkane1]

My concept of what should happen to a bully is this. I like to see them get a measure of what they gave out. I've seen this happen but not often enough. Bullys come in all sizes and IQ'S but they have one thing in common. They are geniuses at finding victims. There are rare occassions when they pick on the wrong kid or the weaker kid has a stronger relative but this is rare.

Heres a story. A basketball player bullied weaker students. One day one fo his victims had a very large tough looking cousin challenge him. He not only chickened out he got inside his car and locked the doors. He did this in front of other students and he deservedly got the reputation for being a coward. I was hoping hed get stmped but alas that didn't happen.

I ignore him at school reunions.

 

[Dessi]

I can't wait for the follow up to this thread.

 

[JJM 777]

Why? For the bolded part.

The society seems not to react.

It is a universal truth that in the absence of control and punishments, some humans of all ages start to behave in opportunistic and self-serving ways that harm others.

 

[epepke]

It is a universal truth that in the absence of control and punishments, some humans of all ages start to behave in opportunistic and self-serving ways that harm others.

Yeah, and you have still not answered my question. People seem to like it when bullies act in opportunistic and self-serving blah blah blah. So what's this need to stop it?

 

[JJM 777]

People seem to like it when bullies act in opportunistic and self-serving blah blah blah. So what's this need to stop it?

Oh, you mean _that_.

?

Can you really mean _thaat_?

The bullies themselves like it, but the bullied ones not so much, and the public opinion is against it, so in democracy the public opinion is what creates a need to stop it. Or philosophically, it being wrong creates a need to stop it.

 

[JihadJane]

JREF seems to attract quite a lot of bullies.

 

[Cainkane1]

School is really bad because there are almost no consequences to overt cruel behaviour. Victims of bullying don't tell because of fear of retaliation. Weaker students get spit on, robbed, shoved, beaten and insulted and if a teacher is told they just look at you or say someting innane and off topic. The feeling of helplessness is overwhelming.

This is true even if you aren't being bullied yourself. Just seeing some poor boy or girl get treated like garbage is traumatic in and of itself.

 

[Cainkane1]

JREF seems to attract quite a lot of bullies.

Give us an example of who and why you are saying this.

 

[sphenisc]

Give us an example of who and why you are saying this.

You, your failure to say "please."

 

[ConspiRaider]

Ah, bullies. Oh I could go on a week, a month about bullies but I won't. Suffice it to say that if I saw some of these 'fine' folks today - even all these years later - I'd have to marshal all of my reserves of inner strength, patience and coolheadedness not to go off on each of them. When you have been tremendously bullied? There is a little section of your mind that never forgets. Hopefully forgives.

Anybody see the movie 'City Slickers'? Lot of us have. My favorite scene in that movie is the one with Daniel Stern, kind of late into the movie, when it's night, the 2 cowboys who are their guides get drunk and start harrassing Billy Crystal's calf. Threatening to kill it, if I remember. That starts it. Eventually the cowboys pull their guns and get uppity and threaten the vacationers - and then Daniel Stern somehow turns the tables on them. Ooooh. Love that. Remember how he had the cowboy on the ground, he's on top of him with the gun in his face and reads him the riot act? About how bullies are the worst people in the world because they take everything - including your dignity.

Daniel Stern did that so well that I often wonder if he, like me, had been on the receiving end of relentless, vicious bullying in his school days.

The kind of bullying I endured is the kind where you could have died - albeit accidentally. I don't think the bullies actually had murder on their minds - and yet you did fear for your life at rare times. You knew no one could help, you could not fight back, there was no way out - and you just hoped that somehow you'd survive without being permanently maimed. You never thought for one minute about how it might affect your psyche - this was strictly barebones survival.

I'd be punched from one side of the school hallway so hard that I'd bang up against the lockers on the other side and for about 2 seconds or so - be dazed. I'd be picked up and thrown into trash barrels or dumpsters. Locked in lockers - they'd stick a pencil through the lock hole. Another favorite - tossing me into the creek behind the high school where the mud therein stank to high heaven. Now I've got to go from class to class the rest of the day, smelling like a rancid trash dump. The pleasure - the enjoyment they experienced at this activity is what you don't forget. That raw savagery. Inhuman.

This went on until about midway through the 11th grade and then one day - I lost my temper and saw red. Only for about 5 to 10 seconds. The unfortunate bully received no physical damage - I didn't even hit him - but he was about as scared as a human being can be. All bullying of me - within this 2,000 student high school - stopped forevermore from that day forward.

 

[Nanny Ogg]

School is really bad because there are almost no consequences to overt cruel behaviour. Victims of bullying don't tell because of fear of retaliation. Weaker students get spit on, robbed, shoved, beaten and insulted and if a teacher is told they just look at you or say someting innane and off topic. The feeling of helplessness is overwhelming.

This is true even if you aren't being bullied yourself. Just seeing some poor boy or girl get treated like garbage is traumatic in and of itself.

Hello.

I think that bullying goes on even further. And it's not something that can be "forgiven" or "corrected" once it has gone so far. "Damaged" is different than "broken".

 

[Arisia]

Living well is the best revenge, I think.

I was lucky in living in a very small town, and small school district. Everyone knew everyone else, from Kindergarten right through to 12th grade, pretty much. There were some moments of torment, but in general kids got along. Having older siblings who were respected by teachers and liked by other kids helped me, too, I'm sure. I do notice that the least pleasant kids in my school have ended up with the least pleasant lives as adults (jail, that kind of thing).

 

[foxholeatheist]

Sarcasm noted. Although I'm not really sure what the point of it was.

After all, I wasn't trying to hold myself up as some sort of beacon of virtue. Just the opposite... I consider myself a pretty average person with a pretty average childhood; no reason to expect that I was any more "feeling" than any other kid at that age. And if I could do it (meaning understand that hurting others is wrong), why couldn't anyone?

Well, how about this...

I did not mean that comment to be taken sarcasm and I apologize if that is how you took that comment. I retract.

I can ruck a 40 pound ruck sack 12 miles in about 2 and a half hours with a full battle load. If I can do it why can't anyone? Because physically, like emotionally, we're all different.

You said it, you're a pretty average person who had a pretty average childhood. I allow that most kids are generally like you but I allow that some get to see Dad drink up and smack Mommy around a little. Maybe Junior gets to have a turn getting smacked around a tad. Maybe they are taught that violence is somehow fun or how you get your way or a way of instilling your authority.

From: http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/how-children-develop-empathy/
By the time a child is about 4 years old, he begins to associate his emotions with the feelings of others....When a child is about 5, he can learn about empathy by talking about hypothetical problems. How would you feel if someone took a toy away from you? How would your friend feel if someone took a toy away from him? By the time a child is 8, he can grapple with more complex moral decisions in which he must realize that someone else’s feelings may be different from his own.

Or how about: http://newswise.com/articles/view/542456/
Children between the ages of seven and 12 appear to be naturally inclined to feel empathy for others in pain, according to researchers who used functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) scans to study responses in children.

I have no doubt that there are differences in the rate that empathy develops in different individuals (and that their ability to respond to the feelings of others will probably become more refined over time.)

I appreciate citing your sources however let's keep the cardinal rule in mind: There are exceptions to the rule.

However, keep in mind that:
- Many of the anecdotes here are situations involving kids in their teens, well past the age where at least the "basics" of empathy should be understood (at least according to the references I have found). I wouldn't feel satisfaction to see the downfall of the "former 5-year old kid who got into fights" as I would the "former 15 year old who used to beat people up"

- Some of the anecdotes here have been about rather extreme situations... bullies who were actually resorting to physical violence. Even if an individual's sense of empathy hasn't been refined enough (when they're a teen) to understand how things like bad words can hurt, they should be refined enough to know that punching/etc. hurts.

Your whole argument seems to be based on the argument that "the bullies didn't know better". So, what's your magical age when you think a person should "know better"? Is 18 years the cut off?

I don't know. I honestly don't know. I cringe at stuff when I think about stuff I said and did when I was 18 and I would hate for people to hold the 30 year old Fox to what 18 year old Fox did. I work with bullies now. I had bullies as a kid. But I certainly wouldn't laugh at anyone for living in a trailer park no matter how much of a d!ck they were or are because a part of that empathy that we're supposed to have over the bullies is not to do that kind of thing.

Bottom line: If we're going to lord over our moral superiority over bullies, past or present, we need to have some first. I find the two to be mutually exclusive.