Santa Claus

[Jack by the hedge]

I voted yes, as we did pretend he was real though our kids saw through it some years ago.

I wasn't sure at first whether I wanted to pretend Santa was real in the first place, but I concluded it was the best of both worlds: When they're little they enjoy the magic, and when they get a little older they get to feel smart because they worked out it wasn't real (I made a point of being impressed by how smart they were to figure it out). On top of which, they get a lesson that sometimes adults tell them stuff is real when in fact it's just pretend.

 

[bruto]

I voted yes, as we did pretend he was real though our kids saw through it some years ago.

I wasn't sure at first whether I wanted to pretend Santa was real in the first place, but I concluded it was the best of both worlds: When they're little they enjoy the magic, and when they get a little older they get to feel smart because they worked out it wasn't real (I made a point of being impressed by how smart they were to figure it out). On top of which, they get a lesson that sometimes adults tell them stuff is real when in fact it's just pretend.

I suppose it's selfish of me, but I always thought that if I must teach my children that adults can't be trusted, I'd use someone other than myself as the example.

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

I suppose it's selfish of me, but I always thought that if I must teach my children that adults can't be trusted, I'd use someone other than myself as the example.

It's not selfish, it's practical to the point of being relevant to sheer survival. A child needs to know that he or she can trust his or her parent above anyone else. I truly cannot fathom how some parents are so nonchalant about lying to their children in such a ridiculous way. Do they not understand that the formative years are exceedingly important in determining patterns of trust, behavior, and confidence for the rest of one's life?

Life isn't a joke or a game, and messing around with children's heads isn't funny.

 

[Dragoonster]

It's not selfish, it's practical to the point of being relevant to sheer survival. A child needs to know that he or she can trust his or her parent above anyone else.

But the vast majority of them can't, and not just for Santa. It would be a rare parent who never, ever lies to their children.

I truly cannot fathom how some parents are so nonchalant about lying to their children in such a ridiculous way. Do they not understand that the formative years are exceedingly important in determining patterns of trust, behavior, and confidence for the rest of one's life?

Life isn't a joke or a game, and messing around with children's heads isn't funny.

Life isn't a joke or a game, but it is chockful of liars from the media to politicians, bosses, signficant others, theists, woo-artists, etc. The pattern of trust and confidence taught should be--don't trust everyone, leaven your confidence with skepticism. Not--all adults tell the truth, so have full confidence in whatever they tell you.

I don't have kids but would put on that Santa is real. I don't base it on any life lesson teaching either, it was fun for me and everyone I know and we all turned out okay, so I don't see it as a big deal.

 

[whatthebutlersaw]

Family tradition is that Santa - Jultomten - is real. The kids go along even though they don't really believe it since they are required to thank aunt Ingrid for the presents the next time they see her. Basically Swedish moms are far too pragmatic to let some bearded dude take the credit for all their hard work and not thanking for gifts can cause one side of the family to not talk to another side for years. Best avoided by some collective double think.

The kids don't care anyhow, a new pair of skates is a new pair of skates.

 

[Foolmewunz]

This.

That Santa Claus guy is really a cheap knock-off of Sinterklaas, invented by Coca-Cola. And with his extreme obesitas, he really is a bad role model. No wonder US health care is in such dire straits.

If I had kids, I'd happily celebrate it with them. It also is fun for grown-ups: drawing straws whom to give a present, and spending the effort of making an original packaging of the gift and writing an accompanying rhyme.

First sentence/bolded part: Urban Legend Alert.... Urban Legend Alert.... Urban Legend Alert... Urban Legend Alert...

And a bump because I hadn't seen this thread and needed to vote with the fantasy supporters. I really am amazed every time we discuss this at the number of people who think it is their hidebound skeptical duty to tell kids that there's no Santa. (Although, I suspect that the vote is poisoned by literalists who "don't do Santa" because their kids are too old, or because they have no kids. You pedants are like that, ya know! )

 

[ddt]

That Santa Claus guy is really a cheap knock-off of Sinterklaas, invented by Coca-Cola.

First sentence/bolded part: Urban Legend Alert.... Urban Legend Alert.... Urban Legend Alert... Urban Legend Alert...

There's three parts to discuss here

1) That Santa is a knock-off of Sinterklaas, himself modeled on the bishop Saint Nicholas, is without question - just start with the name, Claus = Klaas = short for Nicholas. To quote the wiki page:

Santa Claus, also known as Saint Nicholas, Sinterklaas, Father Christmas, Kris Kringle, or simply "Santa", is a legendary figure who, in many Western cultures, brings gifts to the homes of the good children during the late evening and overnight hours of Christmas Eve, December 24[2] or on his Feast Day, December 6 (Saint Nicholas Day).[3] The legend may have part of its basis in hagiographical tales concerning the historical figure of gift giver Saint Nicholas.

And sure, other legends and folkores have been incorporated as well.

2) Invented by Coca-Cola - well, I'm wrong there, it's older.

3) That he's a cheap knock-off: well, that's primarily a matter of taste I guess. I may very well also not know the full extent of the US Santa traditions. But there's a whole richness of rituals surrounding the Sinterklaas feast. For instance, putting out your shoe in front of the hearth, with a carrot in it for Sinterklaas' horse, and of course singing one or two Sinterklaas songs, and finding it with a marzipan or chocolate figurine in the morning. Of the poems accompanying the gifts. I'm not aware that the Santa feast has such touches to it.

 

[kestertaylor]

So we chop down trees and cover them in gaudy trinkets because axial tilt causes northern hemisphere precipitation to form into cold flakes and accumulate?

Fair enough, but if that's all it takes to qualify for a stat holiday then I better damned well get time off for The Feast of Maximum Occupancy.

You're not wrong, but here's what I don't get: if you enjoyed murdering trees and dressing them up, and you miss it, why don't you do it? Isn't enjoyment enough? Celebrate Festivus (though you'd need a pole for that too). or the solstice. Or pull a Futurama and call it Xmas. The holiday's so commercialized at this point anyway you don't need to support Jesus or paganism to participate in the parts of it you like.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Never had Santa Claus, we opened our presents Christmas Eve as a family. Santa was pagan.

Stepfather tried to introduce Santa and opening presents in the morning, but he was hampered by never working and not being able to afford presents.

 

[Foolmewunz]

There's three parts to discuss here

1) That Santa is a knock-off of Sinterklaas, himself modeled on the bishop Saint Nicholas, is without question - just start with the name, Claus = Klaas = short for Nicholas. To quote the wiki page:

And sure, other legends and folkores have been incorporated as well.

2) Invented by Coca-Cola - well, I'm wrong there, it's older.

3) That he's a cheap knock-off: well, that's primarily a matter of taste I guess. I may very well also not know the full extent of the US Santa traditions. But there's a whole richness of rituals surrounding the Sinterklaas feast. For instance, putting out your shoe in front of the hearth, with a carrot in it for Sinterklaas' horse, and of course singing one or two Sinterklaas songs, and finding it with a marzipan or chocolate figurine in the morning. Of the poems accompanying the gifts. I'm not aware that the Santa feast has such touches to it.

2)

And I speak from experience. I used to use not just that one, but also the UL about Coke mistranslating their own name in Chinese - in a class I gave. I'm happy to report that I corrected myself and wasn't nailed by one of the attendees. (This is one of the underlying reasons behind my JREF nom de plume.)

 

[Bob2038]

I have 2 kids one is 12 and the other is 3.

We have always told the kids that Santa is real(I think the 12 year is just playing along with it at this point). I think it is a good thing for the kids to get to believe in it while they are young, and then when they get older they can see that people make up stories and this can be a huge boost to their critical thinking skills.

I have seen and heard some atheists(I am one as well) who think it is a bad idea to tell their kids that there is a santa, but I disagree for the reasons above.

 

[calibos]

I'm a member of the dyed in the wool atheist and skeptic brigade who love Christmas, loves decorating the house, loves the carols and the atmosphere and thinks that it is a good critical thinking excercise for the kids when they work it out. Also, Tis but a short step from..."you mean millions of people across the world believe in Santa Claus and it turns out its all made up and he doesn't exist!!"...to..."Hold on, millions of people believe in a guy who walks on water and........"

As for the greatest Christmas mystery of all. No, not the delivering of presents to millions of kids all in one night. That can be explained with Special Relativity. No, the mystery of how Santa can be in hundreds of thousands of Shopping Malls all across the world simultaneously.

Well its 2010. I think the Mall Santas can now explain it without having to give the game away that they are not the real Santa. Santas helper!!! Pfffft. Thats the elves Job. All they have to say to the 8 year old that asks him how he can be in thousands of Malls at the same time, is, "Kid, Ya know Copy and paste on your home PC, Yeah??......And you've seen the Movie Avatar right??"

 

[Foolmewunz]

I have 2 kids one is 12 and the other is 3.

We have always told the kids that Santa is real(I think the 12 year is just playing along with it at this point). I think it is a good thing for the kids to get to believe in it while they are young, and then when they get older they can see that people make up stories and this can be a huge boost to their critical thinking skills.

I have seen and heard some atheists(I am one as well) who think it is a bad idea to tell their kids that there is a santa, but I disagree for the reasons above.

I see a career in being a corporate yes-man for the 12 year old. At 12, he's got to be onto it. He's playing along for the swag.

 

[arthwollipot]

How can an atheist in good conscience sing "God Rest Ye, Merry Gentlemen", "Silent Night", or "Hark, The Herald Angels Sing"?

 

[Foolmewunz]

How can an atheist in good conscience sing "God Rest Ye, Merry Gentlemen", "Silent Night", or "Hark, The Herald Angels Sing"?

You're assuming "good conscience" for some reason. I admit it's a con job on the kids, but no more so than taking their little toy horsey and making galloping or whineying sounds. Or pretending their teddy bear has a personality.

My daughter had a big toy koala she named Sasha. One day walking on Jones St. in Greenwich Village, we saw that someone had scrawled the name Sasha in the cement. I made up a story about her bear sneaking out at night when we were asleep and writing his name in the cement two miles from our apartment.

She loved it. After that. she made a big pretend thing about telling him to be good "tonight" before she went to bed, and I'd move him around so he'd be somewhere else when she woke up, and even once made fake koala prints on the windowsill! We'd put him waay up on a high shelf so he'd have to stay with his brother and sister stuffed animals, but then in the morning, he'd be down on her lower bunk. Heck, one night he didn't even come home... until she was taking her bath when she heard the window slam in the kitchen and heard me yelling, "Sasha! Where have you been?"

I think Pisci and I once concurred in a long ago thread: What good are kids if you can't mess with their heads?

(Of course, she grew up to be a crack ho on Tenth Avenue, but other than that, she's been fine. )

 

[kestertaylor]

How can an atheist in good conscience sing "God Rest Ye, Merry Gentlemen", "Silent Night", or "Hark, The Herald Angels Sing"?

Because they like the songs? Does appreciating the religious works of renaissance painters, or Mozart, make you a bad atheist too? Does writing the Nibelungenlied make Wagner a Norse religionist?

 

[Femke]

There's three parts to discuss here

1) That Santa is a knock-off of Sinterklaas, himself modeled on the bishop Saint Nicholas, is without question - just start with the name, Claus = Klaas = short for Nicholas. To quote the wiki page:

And sure, other legends and folkores have been incorporated as well.

2) Invented by Coca-Cola - well, I'm wrong there, it's older.

3) That he's a cheap knock-off: well, that's primarily a matter of taste I guess. I may very well also not know the full extent of the US Santa traditions. But there's a whole richness of rituals surrounding the Sinterklaas feast. For instance, putting out your shoe in front of the hearth, with a carrot in it for Sinterklaas' horse, and of course singing one or two Sinterklaas songs, and finding it with a marzipan or chocolate figurine in the morning. Of the poems accompanying the gifts. I'm not aware that the Santa feast has such touches to it.

I was told that Sinterklaas has some characterictics in common with our old friend Wodan;
- Wodan rides his eight-legged steed Sleipnir, in the clouds; Sinterklaas rides his steed Amerigo on the rooftops
- Wodan needs harvest offerings (hay and tubers), presented in a shoe or a sock, at the hearth; Sinterklaas gets hay and carrots in a shoe by the hearth (or central heating radiator if you lack one)
- They both wear red capes and hats, and bear staffs
- Knowing your name gives someone power over you (Rumpelstiltskin), if they give you the rune letter of your name, they respect you; Sinterklaas gives you your chocolate initial
- Traditional Sinterklaas treats: marzipan pigs, sausages and potatoes are reminiscent of harvest offerings (one of Wodans responsibilities)

And more. Does anyone recognise this?

 

[erwinl]

On the surface there are a lot of simularities between the two feasts.

The great difference is indeed that Sinterklaas is based on a real historical person. The bishop of (then greek) turkish Myra.

Why it is now understood that Sinterklaas comes from Spain is a bit vague. But it is supposed that since the bones of Saint Nicholas are kept in the Italian city of Bari, which was a possession of Chales V and then King Filip II of Spain, who was also our king, that this comes from that period.
But who knows what the real reasons are?

The kids love it by the way. First Sinterklaas at the beginning and then Kerstmis at the end of december. Greatest month for children there is.

Erwinl

 

[arthwollipot]

Because they like the songs? Does appreciating the religious works of renaissance painters, or Mozart, make you a bad atheist too? Does writing the Nibelungenlied make Wagner a Norse religionist?

No, not really. And it occurred to me after making that post that I'd happily sing "The Devil Went Down To Georgia" if I had a decent band behind me, and that's pretty much the same kind of thing.

 

[Miss_Kitt]

I love Christmas carols, and I know the words to all the verses of many of them (which stuns people who don't even know that some of them have multiple verses). I know "Silent Night" in 3 languages -- and am working on the Mandarin version with my kid.

I don't believe that they are describing a real event, but they are often lovely pieces of music and--this is a big draw--you can sing them with other people without actually being in a choir. How often do you get the chance to sing together with friends?

I cherish the memory of singing with a (then new) atheist friend--he was Israeli, and we met through an Objectivist discussion group--about 10 Christmas carols. Because we wanted to sing, we both like to sing, and they were the only songs we both knew!

When they come out with more good 'secular' Xmas songs I will be able to get my sing-along fix without doing "O Come All Ye Faithful" (english and Latin) but I see no harm in it.

Just my thoughts, MK