Sam Harris on "Islamophobia"

'Four Lions was a criticism of Islam ?' - me.

to which you posted another link.

'Jihad satire'

The film is as the main author Morris has described a farce, which exposes the "Dad's Army side to terrorism'

There is no inherent criticism of Islam. I do not think you have seen the film.
 
It satirizes and mocks fundamentalist jihadism.

And in any case, I used it as an example of jokes being made about Muslims and Islam. It's a satire, not a scholarly critique.
 
No, you used it as an example of how you can criticize Islam itself through humour and without fear . This does not fall into that category. It is sympathetic to the main protagonists and mocks Jihadism.
 
raff55 said:
No, you used it as an example of how you can criticize Islam itself through humour and without fear . This does not fall into that category. It is sympathetic to the main protagonists and mocks Jihadism.
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Yes, it mocks the extremist fundamentalist jihadist brand of Islam.

You seem to be splitting a weird kind of hair here.
 
I suppose it goes back to this


'I must have missed the fatawa placed on the writers and actors in Four Lions, the comedians featured in The Muslims Are Coming!, Harald Eia and Bård Tufte Johansen, the members of the Axis of Evil Comedy Tour, and Jeff Dunham.

Can you link them to me, please? '

I don't know about the other comedians but I do know about Four Lions and just as you have called into question Penn and Teller being referenced I call into question your reference. In no way was the film offensive to Islam and therefore can not be included in the category of 'edgy comedy' of Islam.

Have you in fact seen it?
 
A'isha said:
Yes, it mocks the extremist fundamentalist jihadist brand of Islam.

You seem to be splitting a weird kind of hair here.
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By focusing on some comedians we can ignore the worldwide threats and acts against cartoonists and novelists by Muslims*?


*obviously Not True Muslims.
 
Okay.

I'm still mystified as to what your particular complaint is, but I don't really care enough to argue. Feel free to take Four Lions out of my list there.
 
tsig said:
By focusing on some comedians we can ignore the worldwide threats and acts against cartoonists and novelists by Muslims
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No, but it does show that, just as with the exaggerated fears of terrorism, being afraid that you'll be killed for daring to tell jokes about Islam or Muslims is kind of overblown. You're not going to be blown up on a flight by that guy in the seat next to you who prayed towards Mecca before boarding, and you're not going to be murdered if you get up on stage and start telling jokes about Muslims.
 
A'isha

By all means, please explicate for us the vast differences between "barely any comedian worth his/her salt dares to even flirt with Mohammed'esque jabs, as a general rule for fear of their own lives" and "you can't make jokes about Islam or you'll get killed", such that the latter is an egregious distortion and exaggeration of the former.
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You placed something in quotation marks (inverted commas) which is not found in your source. You added some bathroom reference which isn't even hinted at there.

Not all jokes are jabs. Fear of reprisal is not certainty that reprisal is inevitable. Fear is not always accompanied with incontinence.

You know these things. Your asking for an explanataion is as phony as your paraphrase of the other poster's remarks.
 
The point is this.

There is a fear of criticizing Islam and as one of the UK's top satirists Rory Bremner said,
"When [I'm] writing a sketch about Islam, I'm writing a line and I think, 'If this goes down badly, I'm writing my own death warrant there.'

I would suggest that any comedian writing jokes or sketches that references Mohammed or the Quaran in a certain tone will draw severe reaction. A great deal of self censorship goes on.

Suggesting that this is not true by quoting non offensive Films like Four Lions is disingenuous.
 
Also the joking part is a bit of a strawman - Penn Jillette may use humor on BS!, but ultimately the show is about criticizing nonsense. The examples I listed earlier of violence (didn't even mention threats) being visited upon people because of criticism of Islam, not jokes or humor.

I was just giving a more recent example than a sourpuss who died in 1989.
 
As with all things, it's a minority of asshats who try to ruin things for everyone. The vast majority of Muslims are perfectly fine with stand-up comedians who poke fun at aspects of their own religion and cultures (one of the comics on the Allah Made Me Funny tour likes to joke about how he's quite open about the things he did before converting to Islam, "like having fun", and how when he gave up drinking and womanizing after becoming Muslim "my mother thought I was gay!", and one comedy troupe in Jordan had a skit about a Muslim vampire who fears pork instead of crucifixes at their annual Stand Up Comedy Festival).

But it only takes a few to make threats...the bunch that made death threats to the creators of South Park was an organization of about ten guys. Ten, out of 1.6 billion. And yet they got massive media attention, made Comedy Central back down, and fortunately were arrested and jailed for it.

And yet, people like them have distorted perceptions in an almost grotesque fashion, so that no one thinks of all the Muslim fans of South Park who were shocked and dismayed, not at Parker and Stone, but at the threats themselves, and instead everyone remembers and focuses on what ten guys did.
 
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Yes I agree.

It is a minority but a very potent one. What the answer is I'm not sure although the small progressive steps you mentioned are encouraging.

When I can go see the 'Life of Brian Mohammed' at the cinema then I will know things have fundamentally changed.
 
tsig said:
By focusing on some comedians we can ignore the worldwide threats and acts against cartoonists and novelists by Muslims*?


*obviously Not True Muslims.
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A'isha said:
As with all things, it's a minority of asshats who try to ruin things for everyone. The vast majority of Muslims are perfectly fine with stand-up comedians who poke fun at aspects of their own religion and cultures (one of the comics on the Allah Made Me Funny tour likes to joke about how he's quite open about the things he did before converting to Islam, "like having fun", and how when he gave up drinking and womanizing after becoming Muslim "my mother thought I was gay!", and one comedy troupe in Jordan had a skit about a Muslim vampire who fears pork instead of crucifixes at their annual Stand Up Comedy Festival).

But it only takes a few to make threats...the bunch that made death threats to the creators of South Park was an organization of about ten guys. Ten, out of 1.6 billion. And yet they got massive media attention, made Comedy Central back down, and fortunately were arrested and jailed for it.

And yet, people like them have distorted perceptions in an almost grotesque fashion, so that no one thinks of all the Muslim fans of South Park who were shocked and dismayed, not at Parker and Stone, but at the threats themselves, and instead everyone remembers and focuses on what ten guys did.
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Q. E. D.
 
Polls in Britain suggest that an alarmingly high percentage of young British Muslims support the terrorists of 9/11 and 7/7, and some 40% of Muslims want Sharia Law introduced into Britain. Disquietingly high percentages supported the death sentence against Salman Rushdie and the threats of violence against the Danish cartoonists. Even 'moderate' Muslim leaders support the principle that apostasy deserves the death penalty, even if they are too nice to carry out the sentence themselves.

And let's remember, those are just the Muslims prepared to own up to their views IN PUBLIC POLLS. The actual figures of British Muslims supporting 9/11 and 7/7 might be even higher.
 
Joz said:
Polls in Britain suggest that an alarmingly high percentage of young British Muslims support the terrorists of 9/11 and 7/7, and some 40% of Muslims want Sharia Law introduced into Britain. Disquietingly high percentages supported the death sentence against Salman Rushdie and the threats of violence against the Danish cartoonists. Even 'moderate' Muslim leaders support the principle that apostasy deserves the death penalty, even if they are too nice to carry out the sentence themselves.

And let's remember, those are just the Muslims prepared to own up to their views IN PUBLIC POLLS. The actual figures of British Muslims supporting 9/11 and 7/7 might be even higher.
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Can we have sources for this? As you will know, opinion poll evidence requires careful analysis.
 
Actually i don't have a source. It's something Richard Dawkins said a long time ago.

http://old.richarddawkins.net/videos/476560-pat-condell-no-mosque-at-ground-zero/comments?page=2

Comment 38

Dear webmaster,

Could you please remove the video above? It contradicts the the mission statement of the Richard Dawkins Foundation of tolerance and superstition.




"No, please DON'T remove it. I don't know what you mean by the "Richard Dawkins Foundation of tolerance and superstition" (is that a joke or a typo?), but I believe Pat Condell deserves a hearing. He may sound extreme, but that could just reflect the extremes he is fighting against. I don't know the corresponding figures for America, but polls in Britain suggest that an alarmingly high percentage of young British Muslims support the terrorists of 9/11 and 7/7, and some 40% of Muslims want Sharia Law introduced into Britain. Disquietingly high percentages supported the death sentence against Salman Rushdie and the threats of violence against the Danish cartoonists. Even 'moderate' Muslim leaders support the principle that apostasy deserves the death penalty, even if they are too nice to carry out the sentence themselves.

I think it is well arguable that Islam is the greatest man-made force for evil in the world today. Pat Condell is one of the few with the courage to say so. Before condemning his 'extremism', at least consider the possibility that it may be justified."

Richard


Afterwards Richard made another comment which he for some reason deleted some time after.


"And let's remember, those are just the Muslims prepared to own up to their views IN PUBLIC POLLS. The actual figures of British Muslims supporting 9/11 and 7/7 might be even higher."

Richard
 
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