Sam Harris on "Islamophobia"

[tsig]

The Muslim apologists are ignoring the elephant in the room, rioting over cartoons, beheadings and suicide bombings that happen every day. They also seem to think that knowing a few Muslims makes them experts in all thing Islam.

^^^This will be called Islamophobic.^^^

The most Islamophobic things about this post are labeling anyone who might disagree with it as Muslim apologists and whining in advance that it will be called Islamophobic.

Besides those gems, what most makes the post incorrect is the word 'ignoring'.

Q. E. D.

 

[DC]

A skin rash, a broken leg and a bullet thru the chest are all medical problems but we generally treat the gunshot wound first.

exactly, that is why the war on terror concentrates on islamis terrorists.
that is where the wound is, the chest. no need to cut of the legs.

 

[Craig B]

The real true believers are the ones who act out their beliefs, so I believe the martyrs when they tell me that they're gong to die for Islam then do so.

You may be convinced that they're not True Muslims but their testimony sounds louder than yours. BOOM!!

That is not a rational argument. You have lost touch with reality, I regret to say, on account of your hostility. Do you accuse American Muslims of 9/11? Of course not! But wait, the BOOM of 9/11 is louder that the mainly peaceful existence of these people. So it is indeed. What sort of argument is that?

 

[tsig]

There are something on the order of 3,000,000 Muslims in the United States. Unless I missed a major news story, the number of suicide bombings, beheadings, and rioting over cartoons hovers pretty close to zero. Certainly nowhere near "every day." So it's not so much an elephant as a flea.

I'm glad you realize that your post is Islamophobic - the first step to fixing the problem is recognizing that you have one.

911, Boston Marathon bombing, Fort Hood shootings all happened in the USA.

Besides we're talking about Islam and I'm sure you're aware that it isn't confined to the USA.

 

[DC]

911, Boston Marathon bombing, Fort Hood shootings all happened in the USA.

Besides we're talking about Islam and I'm sure you're aware that it isn't confined to the USA.

you seem to be talking about islamic terrorism, not Islam.

maybe you are intimidated by booms and tend to get irrational in presence of loud booms, most people luckely don't.

 

[tsig]

The Muslim apologists are ignoring the elephant in the room, rioting over cartoons, beheadings and suicide bombings that happen every day. They also seem to think that knowing a few Muslims makes them experts in all thing Islam.

^^^This will be called Islamophobic.^^^

Taking the example of the minority and their actions and using them to say an entire group of people behave like this is simply applying guilt group to the majority who are innocent of these things. I have actually been to a mosque and discussed islamic beleifs with a iamams it was cordial and we agreed to differ.

There are something on the order of 3,000,000 Muslims in the United States. Unless I missed a major news story, the number of suicide bombings, beheadings, and rioting over cartoons hovers pretty close to zero. Certainly nowhere near "every day." So it's not so much an elephant as a flea.

I'm glad you realize that your post is Islamophobic - the first step to fixing the problem is recognizing that you have one.

There it is plain as day folks. Attempt to discuss what is actually happening in the world and you are labelled and Islamophobe.

Proof that the label is used to cut off discussion.

 

[Craig B]

There it is plain as day folks. Attempt to discuss what is actually happening in the world and you are labelled and Islamophobe.

Proof that the label is used to cut off discussion.

Indeed. Now you have been told that this is happening in the USA. Discuss it.

There are something on the order of 3,000,000 Muslims in the United States. Unless I missed a major news story, the number of suicide bombings, beheadings, and rioting over cartoons hovers pretty close to zero. Certainly nowhere near "every day." So it's not so much an elephant as a flea.

 

[tsig]

The Muslims here in Birmingham must be awfully busy people to manage to get in all that rioting, beheading, and suicide bombing inbetween their community bowling, nature hike outings, ski trips, and annual Ramadan open house.

I'm fairly sure there are more Muslims in the world than there are in Birmingham.

Or are you trying to generalize about the conduct of all Muslims from a small handful? We know how you think about that.

 

[Cleon]

911, Boston Marathon bombing, Fort Hood shootings all happened in the USA.

9/11 was not committed by Americans. Fort Hood was a single guy, Boston Marathon was two. Single digits for 3,000,000 people. Mathematically, that's pretty damn close to zero. Right up there with the odds of dying in a plane crash, if I'm not mistaken*.

So, given the incredibly low numbers of rioting and beheadings and so on in the US (or Sweden, or Canada, or wherever), is the fear of Islam due to those factors rational? It seems to be more akin to the fear of flying. Almost like a phobia.

Besides we're talking about Islam and I'm sure you're aware that it isn't confined to the USA.

Good point! But if Islam itself is the problem, wouldn't it manifest itself in this 3,000,000 people in some significant way?

Or maybe, just maybe, is something other than simply "Islam" at work here?


* Prob/statistics are not my strong suit.

 

[Cleon]

I'm fairly sure there are more Muslims in the world than there are in Birmingham.

Or are you trying to generalize about the conduct of all Muslims from a small handful? We know how you think about that.

There it is plain as day folks. Attempt to discuss what is actually happening in the world and you are labelled and Islamophobe.

Proof that the label is used to cut off discussion.

Well, at least you're not pretending to be honest about this.

 

[metacristi]

Gotcha. It's ok to use your small group to characterize Islam, but it's not ok to use other small groups to characterize Islam.

That's because, in the most general case possible, all critics of islam can only project their huge biases in their assessment of islam in order to dominate and discriminate the poor muslims whilst Relativists are always automatic winners even if allegedly there is no truth

That we can actually at least approach the truth in the direction totally opposed to that indicated by postmodernist ramblings is of supreme indifference (actually without discriminating anyone, advocating the existence of a single secular law, not also sharia or for that matter something else religious, and criticizing the tenets of islam is not discrimination).

I don't think is a fluke that no muslim in the islamic world, even in the West, can write freely about the possibility that for example maybe the Quran is not perfect and Muhammad deeds not always without blemish*. Liberal muslims do exist (a minority, especially in the West) but at the moment the destiny of islam is definitely in the hands of very reactionary forces (making very probable that the foreseeable future will be the same).

Finally the curious fact is that the apologists of islam, usually very hostile to fundamentalist Christianity and its claim that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, make special pleading in the case of islam (why don't just leave the poor muslims with their innocent belief that the Quran is perfect?).

I'm afraid history proves plenty that it was exactly the move outside the incorrigibility of the holy book which strongly catalysed Modernity by extending greatly the existing secular spaces inside Christian societies (created after the rehabilitation of Reason in the 13th century and the papal reforms at the beginning of the 2 millennium CE; islam never had them in the Middle Ages by the way, even now they are extremely small).

My view is that we are not heading in the right direction, with plenty of good reasons, but this is just my view. The decisions belong ultimately to us all and I know to respect democratic rules. What I will always reject is the attempt to silence legitimate directions of research via 'brute force' (calling names, labelled automatically 'islamophob', warned, censored and so on) how the so called 'western progressives' are doing these days (honestly I would not talk so much about islam, there are better things to do, had not been confronted quite often with these fraudulent attempts to silence me).



*a muslim in Pakistan hit the nail

“Salman Rushdie speaks for me. Mine is a voice that has not yet found expression in newspaper columns, it is the voice of those who are born Muslims but wish to recant in adulthood, yet are not permitted to, on pain of death. Someone who does not live in an Islamic society cannot imagine the sanctions – both self-imposed and external – that militate against expressing religious disbelief. ‘I don’t believe in God’ is an impossible public utterance, even among family and friends. So we hold our tongues, those of us who doubt”.

 

[A'isha]

Finally the curious fact is that the apologists of islam, usually very hostile to fundamentalist Christianity and its claim that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, make special pleading in the case of islam (why don't just leave the poor muslims with their innocent belief that the Quran is perfect?).

The fact that you speak of Islam and Muslims as a whole, but specify only fundamentalist Christianity, is the perfect illustration of the problem with your line of argumentation.

 

[Cleon]

That's because, in the most general case possible, all critics of islam can only project their huge biases in their assessment of islam in order to dominate and discriminate the poor muslims whilst Relativists are always automatic winners even if allegedly there is no truth

That we can actually at least approach the truth in the direction totally opposed to that indicated by postmodernist ramblings is of supreme indifference (actually without discriminating anyone, advocating the existence of a single secular law, not also sharia or for that matter something else religious, and criticizing the tenets of islam is not discrimination).

I honestly and truly have no idea what you're going on about. Relativists? Postmodernism? Not my area, sorry.

 

[tsig]

Well, at least you're not pretending to be honest about this.

And there is the insult.

When calling names doesn't work go for the personal attack.

I've proved my point, that Islam cannot be criticized. Any attempt to do so is shouted down with cries of "Islamophobe and dishonesty."

 

[tsig]

and in reality , the majority of moslems was used to characterize Islam. why does that upset you so much?

You know the majority of Muslims?

 

[Cleon]

And there is the insult.

When calling names doesn't work go for the personal attack.

I've proved my point, that Islam cannot be criticized. Any attempt to do so is shouted down with cries of "Islamophobe and dishonesty."

Well, you don't seem particularly silenced, so it's rather hard to take that seriously. Sorry.

If you don't want to read the posts that respond to you and simply play the martyr, have at it. If you want to discuss the subject seriously, try to do so honestly. Because right now, you ain't, and you're usually better than that.

 

[A'isha]

I've proved my point, that Islam cannot be criticized. Any attempt to do so is shouted down with cries of "Islamophobe and dishonesty."

Yes, it's just terrible that you are being prevented from posting whatever you want to about Islam and Muslims here at JREF.

 

[DC]

And there is the insult.

When calling names doesn't work go for the personal attack.

I've proved my point, that Islam cannot be criticized. Any attempt to do so is shouted down with cries of "Islamophobe and dishonesty."

nice rant , just sad that everyone can read this thread and see your blatant lie.

 

[DC]

You know the majority of Muslims?

personally? no, nobody does.

 

[Ryokan]

I've proved my point, that Islam cannot be criticized. Any attempt to do so is shouted down with cries of "Islamophobe and dishonesty."

Islam is a **** religion. If every Muslim woke up tomorrow and decided to become atheists, the world would most probably be a much better world. That goes for every other religion as well. Religion poisons everything.

The problem here is that you and metacristi aren't talking about Islam, you're talking about Muslims. Those are two very different things.

Let's put it this way... The largest growing religion in Norway is Christian Catholicism, because of immigrants from Eastern Europe.

If I warned against letting these people into the country, by arguing that Christianity is a special evil because Christians are stoning adulturers, burning homosexuals, repressing women, committ terrorism and try to get political power to enact religious laws, and that the evidence is right there to see, in their religious texts, Breivik's terrorist attack in Norway and all across Africa and South America - would you say that I'm making a good argument?

Say that Islam is ****, and I'll agree with you. Generalize about all Muslims based on the absolute worst of Islam, and you're an Islamophobe. Because my Bosnian neighbour has nothing to do with Al-Qaeda or the Saudi Regime, any more than my Pentecostal neighbour has anything to do with the Lord's Resistance Army or the Ugandan regime.