Sam Harris on "Islamophobia"

[mijopaalmc]

The Muslims here in Birmingham must be awfully busy people to manage to get in all that rioting, beheading, and suicide bombing inbetween their community bowling, nature hike outings, ski trips, and annual Ramadan open house.

Hiking? Bowling?!?

Truly the Threat to End All Threats to Western Civilization As We Know It!!!!!

I am just appalled, I tell you! APPALLED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Polaris]

This largely drawn from Hadiths, the validity of which is questioned by many islamic scholars, try talking with them before making blanket assertions about islam and muslims.

For the record I am aethiast but I do not approve of scapegoating entire groups of people just because of the actions of a handful of nutters.

You find as many interpretations of the hadiths across the differing scholars you talk with.

As if the validity of the hadiths is the problem rather than people are willing to follow them and commit atrocities and cruelties based on what they say at all. It wouldn't make it better if the clitoridectomy hadith was authentic.

 

[Craig B]

As if the validity of the hadiths is the problem rather than people are willing to follow them and commit atrocities and cruelties based on what they say at all. It wouldn't make it better if the clitoridectomy hadith was authentic.

The willingness of people to be influenced by them is a function of their presumed authenticity.

 

[quadraginta]

The Muslims here in Birmingham must be awfully busy people to manage to get in all that rioting, beheading, and suicide bombing inbetween their community bowling, nature hike outings, ski trips, and annual Ramadan open house.

Sleeper cells. They're all sleeper cells.

Laying low and just biding their time, waiting for their chance to rape, burn, and pillage.

Oh wait. I forgot.

Pillage first, then burn.

 

[Polaris]

The willingness of people to be influenced by them is a function of their presumed authenticity.

This makes it even worse, and allows for any horror to be justified as good simply by verifying that it was spoken by some child-rapist 1300 years ago. It's the worst kind of suppression of critical thinking, encouraging - even demanding - complete obedience to an unchanging, backwards screed.

 

[AlBell]

No, the West didn't help the Taliban, unless you're equating blowback with material support.

And yes, 9/11 was the start. Iraq aside (and shouldn't it be "were unpopular" WRT Iraq, since that war is over as far as the UK is concerned?), unpopular is not synonymous with unjustified.

IIRC embassy bombings in Africa and the USS Cole with significant loss of life and the 1993 attack on world trade center were prior acts of war.

 

[Polaris]

IIRC embassy bombings in Africa and the USS Cole with significant loss of life and the 1993 attack on world trade center were prior acts of war.

You're absolutely correct WRT the 1998 embassy bombings, as those were followed by al-Qaida's official declaration.

The 1993 attack is debatable, due to KSM's involvement, but it wasn't officially AQ yet.

I need to brush up, it's been a while - no excuse for forgetting Nairobi/Dar es-Salaam.

 

[tsig]

CraigB

Much as enjoy your homely little stories about Glasgow what has this got to do with this Islamic topic?

Read for comprehension; It is unique today in the level of Violence.

No, no, we can't use the cartoon riots, beheadings and suicide bombings to characterize Islam but they can use the small group that they know personally to characterize it.

 

[Cleon]

No, no, we can't use the cartoon riots, beheadings and suicide bombings to characterize Islam but they can use the small group that they know personally to characterize it.

Gotcha. It's ok to use your small group to characterize Islam, but it's not ok to use other small groups to characterize Islam.

 

[tsig]

that is a blatant lie, i several times in this thread said i Support fighting radicals even with war machinery. i am not ignoring this, but i am realizing that this is not the majority of Moslems, but a small minority.

i am not expert in Islam, but i do have People i consider friends, that are actually experts, one of them studied the Koran and the hadits from more than 14 years (yeah i know, what a waste of time, like studiying Star Wars for 14 ears). and is one of the Imams in the part of the City i am living in, a part that is populated by mostly foreigners and many of them Moslems from many different countries.

Have you discussed any difficult subjects with them? Suicide bombing, Jihad?

 

[Craig B]

This makes it even worse, and allows for any horror to be justified as good simply by verifying that it was spoken by some child-rapist 1300 years ago. It's the worst kind of suppression of critical thinking, encouraging - even demanding - complete obedience to an unchanging, backwards screed.

I was referring to the argument that dome of this material is not authentic, as stated

This largely drawn from Hadiths, the validity of which is questioned by many islamic scholars, try talking with them before making blanket assertions about islam and muslims.

 

[Craig B]

No, no, we can't use the cartoon riots, beheadings and suicide bombings to characterize Islam but they can use the small group that they know personally to characterize it.

Where does that come from? I'm talking about the observed behaviour of a large community, not merely the opinions of a small group of acquaintances.

 

[DC]

No, no, we can't use the cartoon riots, beheadings and suicide bombings to characterize Islam but they can use the small group that they know personally to characterize it.

and in reality , the majority of moslems was used to characterize Islam. why does that upset you so much?

 

[tsig]

Once again applying group guilt to a whole group of people using the actions of a couple of fanatics.

On a doctrinal level and this I know because I have read the Qu'ran, as soon as they murdered that solider in pure islamic doctrine they stopped being muslims.

Like in christianity murder is a sin in islam.

A couple? There's 911 then the Fort Hood shootings, the Boston Marathon bombing, the shoe bomber and numerous suicide bombings.

You're more of an Islamic expert than all the perpetrators of violence in the name of Islam?

 

[A'isha]

Have you discussed any difficult subjects with them? Suicide bombing, Jihad?

http://www.bisweb.org/our-stand-on-terrorism/

 

[tsig]

The central tenet of Islam is that God is one, and Mohammed is his prophet. The Bible makes similar claims to truth and changelessness, and like the Bible, this doesn't prevent the Qu'ran from being re-interpreted and cherry-picked.

It is exactly this appeal to the Qu'ran as inviolable that distinguishes Islamophobia from legitimate criticism of Islam--not that you're an Islamophobe, but you're headed down the same rabbit hole. It's equivalent to claiming that Jews must follow Talion, because it says so in the Bible and the Bible says it's the word of God. A reasonable critique of Islam might observe that Salafism seems to be a common characteristic of Sunni terrorist organizations and advocate for Salafism being discouraged, perhaps by lending support to peaceful organizations based on rival schools. It's a specific observation with a suggested course of action that can be carried out.

More interpretation and cherry-picking is exactly what Islam needs, but the Islamophobe doesn't acknowledge that sort of thing as 'legitimate Islam', as though they trump Islamic scholars and their followers when it comes to Islamic authenticity.

The real true believers are the ones who act out their beliefs, so I believe the martyrs when they tell me that they're gong to die for Islam then do so.

You may be convinced that they're not True Muslims but their testimony sounds louder than yours. BOOM!!

 

[tsig]

what experiences did you have then?

I was in London in 1998 when thousands of bearded men burned a book they hadn't read and demanded the punishment of the author.

I listened in disbelief to a musician I had admired calling for his death.

I have tried to understand why. I have read the quran and engaged in debate with many Muslims.
I was again in London last year and encountered a 'Muslim Patrol'.

I do not know how many times I have to say it but here I go again I know most Muslims just want to live in peace but that is not who we are dealing with.

It's always the extremists that get to set the agenda.

 

[A'isha]

The real true believers are the ones who act out their beliefs

Which also includes the ones who don't blow up themselves and other people, you know.

 

[tsig]

instead of just picking on the one religion and the fanatics that claim to act in its name be consistent, highlight the nutters who claim to be christians who attack Doctors in the US who carry out abortions and send death threats to people, maybe point out the almost ceaseless attack on science by all religious fundamentalists?

How about the Bhuddists who have been attacking christians in Sri Lanka?

Be consistant, three are fanatics in all religions who will go to extremes and have done so, that must mean there is a problem in all the religions.

A skin rash, a broken leg and a bullet thru the chest are all medical problems but we generally treat the gunshot wound first.

 

[DC]

Have you discussed any difficult subjects with them? Suicide bombing, Jihad?

yes , just recenently like i said. suicide bombings, but that is not a difficult topic, the same guy had alot more trouble with the topic of evolution

but suicude bombing was a topic recently , he claimed suicide bombers are not moslems. what they do contradicts Islam. It does not contradict Islam according to the radicals. he said well they are wrong and they know nothing about Islam if they think such things are justified. and he came up with the usual defence i know from them by telling me how Islam teaches that even killing one innocent person is like killing the whole humanity bla bla. and i said , yeah i know that this is what you believe, but that is not what they believe and they use the part that teaches that its ok to kill those that invade your country. and he went on to other peacefull pasages.. i told him that it all comes down to cherry picking stuff they find usefull. like all religious people do. they pick the parts they like and ignore the rest. and just because he does not agree with it, doesn't mean that they are indeed not Moslems. who's to judge who is and who is not a real moslem. and so on. he never was offended, never got angry, we ended up agreeing that the terrorists abuse a religion to get their means.
but its hard to offend him any way , and he is the most religious one. i told him his god does not exist and is merely a construct by humans. ha you will see was his answer. and we are still friends and respect eachother as humans.

and no i do not think all moslems are like the ones i know, i several times said that they are the most modern ones i have ever seen. i fully know that many are far less modern, and dont see their religion so relaxed and as totaly peacefull. and i know there are huge numbers of radical moslems willing to blow up innocent people. they are a real problem and need to be destroyed. but they are not Islam itself. they are not the majority of moslems.

i come from a part of the world were most people believe in a religion that i find absolutely disgusting. a monster god that kills all live on the planet except for one family and 2 of every animal. but heck , those people around me, pass that as a story for children and those same people see so much moral value in their religion and strangely construed a peacefull religion out of it and are easy to be living with.
maybe its just that i am used to people that can take the most disgusting and appaling stories and still cherry pick a peacefull way of live out of it. i have seen Christians doing it, i have seen Moslems doing it, i am used to that acrobatics better this way than the way fanatics cherry pick