Sam Harris on "Islamophobia"

If I wanted to understand Quakerism I'd study Quakerism not Islam.

Are you suggesting that in order to discuss Islam we also need to discuss every other religion in the world? Are Islamic scholars also Christian, Jewish and Hindu scholars?


The issue is not merely discussing Islam. The issue is singling out a behavior as unique to Islam (and usually, by implication, generally applicable to most if not all adherents of the faith) as opposed to the behavior of adherents of some other faith (e.g. Christianity.)

Even though this may not be stated as such outright it is clear that such is the intent.

Therefore Islam is already being compared to other religions.

Why would you pretend otherwise?
 
The issue is not merely discussing Islam. The issue is singling out a behavior as unique to Islam (and usually, by implication, generally applicable to most if not all adherents of the faith) as opposed to the behavior of adherents of some other faith (e.g. Christianity.)

Even though this may not be stated as such outright it is clear that such is the intent.

Therefore Islam is already being compared to other religions.

Why would you pretend otherwise?

One can discuss a thought process/mind set, such as any religion, without having to resort to comparisons.

If they are wrong, they are wrong.

X is wrong, Y is wrong - but X is wronger than Y, or Y is wronger than X does not lead to much...

Now, perhaps the above could equally be applied to scientific theory. However, scientific theories remain fully opened to critical discussion and search for evidence, and most are based on an empirical starting point.

In the case of X or Y or n religion, they refuse to be so, i.e. fully opened to critical discussion and search for/based on evidence.

Therefore, any outcome of X or Y or n religion will always be based on a very poor starting point - i.e. nothing empirical.

To conclude, if one wants to question religion X, religion Y need not play a role.
 
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Perhaps I've just been taken in by Dr. Harris' arguments, but I do not see the big debate around what he is saying.

I don't think any True Scotsman Athiest would argue that there aren't any harmful tenets in other religions, however there is a scale of harms. One might look at various societies from around the world and compare the impact that religion has on those societies

Buddhism does not appear to be particularly harmful to society in that the societies where is is practiced are generally benign . Jainism too. Modern Christianity is also fairly toothless, but as we know this has not always been the case and at least in the US, Evangelicals pose a threat to secular society. Now lets turn to Islamic societies. Oh dear.

It is not difficult to see that Islam has several tenets that foster harmful ideas. The idea that the defense of Islam is every Muslim's highest calling is one such idea. The idea that heathens should be converted by sword and flame or killed is another such idea.

I'm nearly certain that there are other religions out there with even worse/more harmful ideas, but they do not claim 1.5 billion followers and several governments under their sway.

If we are to make the world a safer and happier place, does it not make sense to start with the religion that poses the greatest risk to civil soceity? Is there any serious doubt by any poster here that there is another religion which poses a greater or even equal risk to society than Islam? Is so, what is your justification for thinking that?
 
Perhaps I've just been taken in by Dr. Harris' arguments, but I do not see the big debate around what he is saying.

I don't think any True Scotsman Athiest would argue that there aren't any harmful tenets in other religions, however there is a scale of harms. One might look at various societies from around the world and compare the impact that religion has on those societies

Buddhism does not appear to be particularly harmful to society in that the societies where is is practiced are generally benign . Jainism too. Modern Christianity is also fairly toothless, but as we know this has not always been the case and at least in the US, Evangelicals pose a threat to secular society. Now lets turn to Islamic societies. Oh dear.

It is not difficult to see that Islam has several tenets that foster harmful ideas. The idea that the defense of Islam is every Muslim's highest calling is one such idea. The idea that heathens should be converted by sword and flame or killed is another such idea.
I'm nearly certain that there are other religions out there with even worse/more harmful ideas, but they do not claim 1.5 billion followers and several governments under their sway.

If we are to make the world a safer and happier place, does it not make sense to start with the religion that poses the greatest risk to civil soceity? Is there any serious doubt by any poster here that there is another religion which poses a greater or even equal risk to society than Islam? Is so, what is your justification for thinking that?

the question is, how many Moslems do actually believe what you believe Islam teaches them.

and another question is, is that Islam or is that radicalism you are talking about.
 
... It is not difficult to see that Islam has several tenets that foster harmful ideas. The idea that the defense of Islam is every Muslim's highest calling is one such idea. The idea that heathens should be converted by sword and flame or killed is another such idea.
This is a historical feature, even more so, of Catholicism. But it is not now attended to by any more that a lunatic fringe of Catholics.
I'm nearly certain that there are other religions out there with even worse/more harmful ideas, but they do not claim 1.5 billion followers and several governments under their sway.
That is the point. I live quite happily and undisturbed in the middle of the main area of residence of Muslims in Glasgow. These are perfectly peaceful members of society - because Scottish society nowadays is a mainly peaceable secular one - not true in the past, of course. In a disordered religion-based society Muslims might well be dangerous, but so would Christians. It has next to nothing to do with the tenets of the faith. Consider former Yugoslavia. There were innumerable atrocities involving religious communities during the disintegration of that state. Were the Muslims better or worse behaved than the Christians? Neither one nor the other probably.
If we are to make the world a safer and happier place, does it not make sense to start
doing what?
with the religion that poses the greatest risk to civil soceity? Is there any serious doubt by any poster here that there is another religion which poses a greater or even equal risk to society than Islam? Is so, what is your justification for thinking that?
What am I to do? Go to my neighbour across the landing and say, your religion poses the greatest risk to civil society, I'm here to sort this by .... eh, I'll need some advice on that, but anyway you're a big risk, though I haven't noticed you doing anything untoward.
 
...snip...

If we are to make the world a safer and happier place, does it not make sense to start with the religion that poses the greatest risk to civil soceity? Is there any serious doubt by any poster here that there is another religion which poses a greater or even equal risk to society than Islam? Is so, what is your justification for thinking that?

Depends on where you live and your worldviews.

For me, here in Brazil, Neopentecostal evangelic fundies are the biggest threat for my views of a fair society.
 
Craig B

This is a historical feature, even more so, of Catholicism. But it is not now attended to by any more that a lunatic fringe of Catholics.
And so, if I, a living person, were interested in busying myself to inhibit that kind of behavior, then I would be wasting my time being concerned with a billion or so living Catholics, but perhaps not wasting my time being concerned with a billion or so living Mulsims.

For example, if I believed that a disposition toward such behavior was both a feature of living Islam and also of centuries-past Catholicism, then I might lauch a thread, maybe several over time, about one and not the other in a forum usually focusing on current events.

Consider former Yugoslavia. There were innumerable atrocities involving religious communities during the disintegration of that state. Were the Muslims better or worse behaved than the Christians? Neither one nor the other probably.
Actually, Christopher Hitchens (no shill for Islam) thought that Muslims' behavior was generally better than their rivals' in that context. You can googlebing that easily enough, and in doing so, will probably stumble upon the history of Muslims in the region protecting Jews during WW II.

All of that is a bit remote from our topic, except as an illustration that having concern about the distinctive tenets of a religion, as Hitchens most confidently did, does not imply bigotry, not even that form of bigotry which is reluctance to give credit for good behavior to whomever it is due.
 
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Craig B <snip>
That rather curiously avoids a discussion of what I actually wrote. My point is that the behaviour of these Catholics was not really a matter of religious tenet, but of the nature of the society in which they found themselves. I have no problem with the Muslims I encounter in large numbers daily who drive me into town in buses, sell me onions in shops and sit on the city council. They are more or less like any other people. I asked in response to a previous post: if "Islam", and not the social disorders and bigotries of much of the world, are the problem, then what am I to do about my neighbours or fellow citizens? What special provisions in regard (not to their personal behaviour) to their religion are required to deal with the danger they embody and propagate. If they were indeed going about torturing non-Muslims to death (as ghetto Jews in the nineteenth century were required by their religion to torture virgin Christian children and drain their blood, or so people were then told!) then there would be no problem about what to do. But the Muslims I see are doing no such thing, and if they want to do it, are successfully concealing this predisposition.

Dawkins is not an Islamic shill. Good. Who here is?
 
Craig B

That rather curiously avoids a discussion of what I actually wrote.
Yes, readers are the curse of a writer's life; forever discussing what they've read instead of what the writer wanted them to read.

My point is that the behaviour of these Catholics was not really a matter of religious tenet, but of the nature of the society in which they found themselves.
Odd, then, that their behavior took the form of, say, forced baptism, rather than forced circumcision, or perhaps forced ritual tatooing with the Eye of Horus. I sense, therefore, a strong dependence of behavior upon specific religious tenet.

More specifically, I agree with American military doctrine that threat is two dimensional, combining capability with intentions. "These Catholics" could not look to their religion or its tenets to get them boats to reach the New World from Western Europe. Those boats were products of the society in which they found themselves. Catholic threat required both; tenets influenced intentions, not capabilities. On the other hand, Quakers also made use of ocean-going boats, and had different dealings with the indigenous peoples of the New World. Quaker threat required both; tenets influenced intentions, not capabilities.

... if "Islam", and not the social disorders and bigotries of much of the world, are the problem, ...
See? There you have it. Sam Harris was quoted in the OP identifying specific tenets as (your words) "the problem," not "Islam." Perhaps A'isha will get back to us sometime about who it was she had in mind who does think "Islam" is some special threat.

Meanwhile, I search the tread in vain for the poster who predicted danger in your acquiring onions from Muslim vendors. Personally, I am fond of the lamb and chips take-away, as served from small shops in France, which is easily my very favorite "fast food." There is also a North African bakery on the Left Bank... OMFG (meh, OMFA). Anyway, cuisine, like threat, is also a matter of capability and intentions. I find that the capability is more than satisfactory in these cases, and the intentions seem utterly unrelated to the religious tenets of the vendors.

Dawkins is not an Islamic shill. Good. Who here is?
I haven't described anybody, here or elsewhere, as an Islamic shill. I said Hitchens wasn't one; I am insufficiently familiar with Dawkins' views on these specific matters to comment on him.
 
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See? There you have it. Sam Harris was quoted in the OP identifying specific tenets as (your words) "the problem," not "Islam." Perhaps A'isha will get back to us sometime about who it was she had in mind who does think "Islam" is some special threat.
I was referring to the most recent formulation of this kind.
If we are to make the world a safer and happier place, does it not make sense to start with the religion that poses the greatest risk to civil soceity? Is there any serious doubt by any poster here that there is another religion which poses a greater or even equal risk to society than Islam? Is so, what is your justification for thinking that?
From Octavo # 83
Meanwhile, I search the tread in vain for the poster who predicted danger in your acquiring onions from Muslim vendors.
Indeed so, my point being that I encounter Muslims in the pursuit of these innocuous activities which nobody could perceive as dangerous. What then am I to do to follow Octavo's prescription for making the world a safer place?
I haven't described anybody, here or elsewhere, as an Islamic shill. I said Hitchens wasn't one; I am insufficiently familiar with Dawkins' views on these specific matters to comment on him.
Others have so described contributors, and I am seeking enlightenment on this point. Thank you for correcting me about Hitchens and Dawkins. Pure slip on my part.
 
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With both Islam and Christianity, I often see people saying the religion can't actually be bad because there are people who claim the religion and are good people. But there's a problem with that claim, which is revealed by the word that's used for the bad people of either religion: "fundamentalists". That would be the people who stick to the fundamental, true nature of the religion, what the religion really, actually, fundamentally is.

Anything else but fundamentalism isn't really following the religion at all. It's living according to something else separate from it, something which counters it, making any claim to actually be following the religion inaccurate. It's what happens when the religion doesn't have the power to do what it really wants.

Even if I were to go along with the claim that Islam's fundamental ideas aren't significantly worse than Christianity's, that wouldn't change the inescapable fact that, between those two, only Islam is a serious threat to people in the world right now because it's the only one that has power to do what it really wants. Islam is the one that's left still needing to be defeated because Christianity already has been.
 
With both Islam and Christianity, I often see people saying the religion can't actually be bad because there are people who claim the religion and are good people. But there's a problem with that claim, which is revealed by the word that's used for the bad people of either religion: "fundamentalists". That would be the people who stick to the fundamental, true nature of the religion, what the religion really, actually, fundamentally is.

Anything else but fundamentalism isn't really following the religion at all.
I don't accept that at all. Even if it were true, it would simply mean that most people are inconsistent in this matter, and tend to make the best of situations in which they find themselves. But so what? We know that anyway.
 
It's also bizarre to say that fundamentalists are sticking to the true religion, because that's what they say! Why would anyone take their criteria as correct? You are getting into No True Scotsman territory.

There's also the point that a lot of fundamentalist ideas are quite modern - for example, Christian fundie stuff really got going in the late 19th century, probably as a reaction to scientific developments. I don't know about Islamic fundamentalism, but it is also a political development in the modern world; for example, they challenged Nasser after his revolution, and he had them tortured and killed. So this set the pattern of political Islamism, opposing the secular Arab nationalists.
 
And I'd say your position suffers from some of the issues I've raised.


Well I definitely disagree with the postmodernist view that the interpretation of a text 'is in the eye of the beholder', actually very often we can make a clear cut rational difference between the alternatives. In our case, as I said before, there are very good reasons to say that the medieval interpretations of islam are much closer to the islam taught and lived by Muhammad in Medina (we can definitely reconstruct with a fair degree of accuracy a 'true' islam) than any 'progressive' interpretation of today.

Secondly there is a reason that islam still strongly shapes the culture all over the muslim world and not the other way around (as in other cultures, Judaism included) in spite of the alleged existence of as many islams as living muslims. It is not a fluke of history that Islam does not have yet a viable alternative to Reform Judaism and the values of Enlightenment (secularism included) have only penetrated superficially* (in spite of hundred of years of exposure to Modenity now).

True other factors have their share (no one rational denies this) but they can only 'modulate' the influence of the still many defective parts of Islamic theology, education and institutions which are pivotal for the observed muslim behaviour**. If I agree withy you is that an entirely new religious education is needed, only people aware of the limits of their religion can direct it where they want. The first step is of course to admit openly that Human Reason is extremely important and that the Quran is not incorrigible (entirely missing currently, in the open, in the muslim world).


*the Islamic world is the only part of the world where religious constitutions survive and in even the most liberal parts the level of secularism is way below what is needed to create a healthy society


** as an example

The more Islam there is, the more insecurity there is. Islam does this because it produces a deeply judgmental society. Everyone intrudes your privacy and turns into a policeman to see if you are being "Islamic-enough"; constantly judging you. You never know when your enemies will use some fraudulent "moral crime" charges to get you into trouble, and the penalties are brutal. This is the Islamic tyranny that has ruined the lives of over a billion victims.

Muhammadanism has produced societies where people openly, in broad daylight, stone women to death and go home as if they did nothing wicked and evil; a sick society where, you can be killed simply for what you think; your mind is not your private property but a public asset. Your mind is to be controlled and ruled by others, to be judged constantly. - blogger exmuslimNfree

- fully in agreement if nothing change radically, islam is not yet a personal religion (that's why a minor number of progressives in the West does not change anything); a society where muslims are majority is very likely to produce major discrimination and of course a sizeable minority of violent radicals

(in case that you are not aware read also The closing of the muslim mind by Robert Reilly to see that we can talk of a core, dysfunctional, islamic worldview; Reilly is shy to say it but unfortunately even shia islam has never been far from the sunni; it is still, doctrinally, at the level of western Christianity immediately after Thomas Aquinas, Reason is severely dented by the widespread belief that it can only confirm islam and unfortunately there are no bright prospects at the moment)
 
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In our case, as I said before, there are very good reasons to say that the medieval interpretations of islam are much closer to the islam taught and lived by Muhammad in Medina

An odd statement, since the fufundamentalist interpretations of Islam that claim to be the "true" Islam (such as Wahhabism) differ from the interpretations of Islam in the actual medieval period.

(we can definitely reconstruct with a fair degree of accuracy a 'true' islam)

Not even close.

than any 'progressive' interpretation of today.

The modern fundamentalist interpretation and the modern progressive interpretation both spring from the same post-medieval salafist impulse.

It is not a fluke of history that Islam does not have yet a viable alternative to Reform Judaism and the values of Enlightenment (secularism included) have only penetrated superficially* (in spite of hundred of years of exposure to Modenity now).

It pretty much is, yeah.

** as an example (in case that you are not aware read also 'The closing of the muslim mind' by Robert Reilly to see that we can talk of a common muslim worldview;

That's not exactly Reilly's view. He's very clear that his book is not a description of something inherent in Islam as a religion, but something that took place within the mainstream of only one particular interpretation of Sunni Islam (albeit the largest portion of it).

Reilly is shy to say it unfortunately even shia islam has never been far from the sunni

Why do you accuse him of being "shy" to say what is obviously just your own cconclusion and not his?
 
This is a historical feature, even more so, of Catholicism. But it is not now attended to by any more that a lunatic fringe of Catholics.

I'm not sure why you think this needed pointing out.
a) I made a point of noting that all religions have their lunatic ideas.
b) We are dealing with the present. Not medieval Europe.

That is the point. I live quite happily and undisturbed in the middle of the main area of residence of Muslims in Glasgow. These are perfectly peaceful members of society - because Scottish society nowadays is a mainly peaceable secular one - not true in the past, of course. In a disordered religion-based society Muslims might well be dangerous, but so would Christians. It has next to nothing to do with the tenets of the faith. Consider former Yugoslavia. There were innumerable atrocities involving religious communities during the disintegration of that state. Were the Muslims better or worse behaved than the Christians? Neither one nor the other probably.

I see. Tu Quoque much? I too live in an area with a large Muslim minority and I find them generally to warm, affable people. It should be noted that the issue under discussion is *not* Muslims. It is whether or not the claim that specific Islamic tenets are a danger to society is bigotry. I maintain (like Dr. Harris) that it isn't bigotry.

The point is that there are several theocratic Islamic states with access to nuclear bombs and some pretty crazy ideas about death and the end of the world. This poses a direct threat to all humans on this planet. I do not think it bigotry to be worried about this. I'm also worried about the North/South Korea situation or any other serious threat to the world. Does that mean I'm bigoted against North Koreans? No. I'm sure most North Koreans are fine, warm, affable people. The delusions they labour under however are HARMFUL TO SOCIETY and it is not bigotry to point that out.

doing what? What am I to do? Go to my neighbour across the landing and say, your religion poses the greatest risk to civil society, I'm here to sort this by .... eh, I'll need some advice on that, but anyway you're a big risk, though I haven't noticed you doing anything untoward.


:rolleyes: Nicely constructed strawman there.

a) What we *do* about the situation has nothing at all to do with whether or not it is bigoted to think this way.
b) The glaringly obvious answer to your question is that we stop allowing the media and governments to be cowed by fear of retribution for things like drawing a few comics or writing a book (ala Rushdie) and insist that in a civil society freedom of expression and speech does not mean freedom from insult.
 
in a civil society freedom of expression and speech does not mean freedom from insult.
A society which encourages insulting behavior may be 'civil', but it isn't civilized.

Civility noun \sə-ˈvi-lə-tē\
: polite, reasonable, and respectful behavior
civilities : polite actions and words
2a : civilized conduct; especially : courtesy, politeness
b : a polite act or expression

If your civil society can only exist if there are no boundaries on insulting behavior and no tolerance of retribution, then perhaps it doesn't deserve to exist.

The glaringly obvious answer to your question is that we stop allowing the media and governments to be cowed by fear of retribution for things like drawing a few comics or writing a book
The media thrives on fear and controversy, while politicians are regularly cowed in fear by the thought of losing votes. Neither are particularly worried about what retribution a few religious nutcases might be capable of delivering - but there's lots of hay to be made from the outrage.
 
... It should be noted that the issue under discussion is *not* Muslims. It is whether or not the claim that specific Islamic tenets are a danger to society is bigotry. I maintain (like Dr. Harris) that it isn't bigotry.
It isn't even sensible! How can "specific Islamic tenets" be a danger to anything, unless people give effect to them in action? Nobody has ever been harmed by a tenet. Now, who is presumably going to apply these tenets, if not Muslims? To say, the tenets are the problem, not the Muslims, is ridiculous.
... The glaringly obvious answer to your question is that we stop allowing the media and governments to be cowed by fear of retribution for things like drawing a few comics or writing a book (ala Rushdie) and insist that in a civil society freedom of expression and speech does not mean freedom from insult.
In that case, and you're right, I simply exercise my freedom of expression, which doesn't include, at least in the UK, the freedom to engage in provocative propagation of hate, or incitement to violence against people. And if in exercising my freedom I say something as stupid as that there is no such thing as Islamophobia, I may expect to be taken to task for it.
 
Roger Ramjets

If your civil society can only exist if there are no boundaries on insulting behavior and no tolerance of retribution, then perhaps it doesn't deserve to exist.
It is clear that speech which offends nobody needs no protection. The question then arises, what about speech which does offend somebody?

In your view, does a society which ever tolerates speech which departs from your chosen dictionary's description of the word civility deserve to exist?

Let's be concrete. I have posted here in this thread that Islam is derivative of earlier religions. Like many true statements, it is morally certain that somebody somewhere has taken offense at that.

I read in the Koran, at 68:15-16, the literal words of the only true God,

When Our communications are recited to him, he says: Stories of those of yore.We will brand him on the nose.

Suppose that there were a society whose laws forbade all cruel and unusual punishments for any offense whatsoever, and so either tolerated my viciously uncivil statement outright, or subjected me only to a small fine or brief imprisonment, instead of mutilating my face.

Would that society deserve to exist, in your view?
 
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A society which encourages insulting behavior may be 'civil', but it isn't civilized.

Civility noun \sə-ˈvi-lə-tē\
: polite, reasonable, and respectful behavior
civilities : polite actions and words
2a : civilized conduct; especially : courtesy, politeness
b : a polite act or expression

If your civil society can only exist if there are no boundaries on insulting behavior and no tolerance of retribution, then perhaps it doesn't deserve to exist.

So depicting the prophet Mohammed is insulting behaviour? Perhaps we should ban the depiction of Mohammed so we don't insult any Muslims? Well, in that case, lets also ban gay marriage, since that is insulting to Christians and Muslims alike. The point is that, just because a section of the population holds a certain belief, does not mean that we cannot or should not criticize that belief and it certainly doesn't mean that such criticism is bigotry. Islam more than any other religion goes to extreme lengths to silence any criticism of Islam. Several posters in this thread appear to belief that this is a good idea.

The media thrives on fear and controversy, while politicians are regularly cowed in fear by the thought of losing votes. Neither are particularly worried about what retribution a few religious nutcases might be capable of delivering - but there's lots of hay to be made from the outrage.

I think you are missing my point slightly. The media and politicians have been cowed into the same tired story that Islam is a religion of peace for the sake of not outraging the Muslim population, who, as amply demonstrated have a habit of rioting and killing people for relatively innocuous offences. It is very clearly not a religion of peace and once again, I maintain that holding this view of Islam is not necessarily bigotry.

It isn't even sensible! How can "specific Islamic tenets" be a danger to anything, unless people give effect to them in action? Nobody has ever been harmed by a tenet. Now, who is presumably going to apply these tenets, if not Muslims? To say, the tenets are the problem, not the Muslims, is ridiculous. In that case, and you're right, I simply exercise my freedom of expression, which doesn't include, at least in the UK, the freedom to engage in provocative propagation of hate, or incitement to violence against people. And if in exercising my freedom I say something as stupid as that there is no such thing as Islamophobia, I may expect to be taken to task for it.

I certainly didn't claim there was no such thing as Islamaphobia, however I do think that label is being unfairly attached to rational and reasonable critics of Islam in an attempt to silence and sideline their views.

I also didn't say that I wanted the freedom to propagate hate. Sure, if I was suggesting that we inter all Muslims in camps and prevent them from ever holding public office (or some other stupid thing), then you might accuse me of incitement to violence or hatred.

Perhaps we should start again:

a) The tenets of Islam contain certain ideas
b) Some of those ideas can be harmful to society
c) A large percentage of Muslims ascribe to these tenets or at least claim to
d) There is evidence that these ideas have caused thousands of deaths and continue to do so today
e) This represents an ongoing and serious threat to society at large

These are my assertions. Which of them do you disagree with or find bigoted?
 

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