Russian Ambassador shot in Turkey

[McHrozni]

The gunman appears to have been Islamic; whether he was Islamist may be a more pertinent question (and a distinction probably lost on Trump).

He was screaming God is greatest in Arabic and claimed it was vengeance for Aleppo.

What connections, other than religion, would you expect of a Turkish politician to have to Aleppo? It sure looks like a religious attack to me.

McHrozni

 

[Sideroxylon]

He was screaming God is greatest in Arabic and claimed it was vengeance for Aleppo.

What connections, other than religion, would you expect of a Turkish politician to have to Aleppo? It sure looks like a religious attack to me.

McHrozni

Most Turks are religious. They see Muslim civilians of Aleppo as brothers and sisters. There have been some horrific pictures coming out of Syria of deaths attributed to Russian forces. For the murderer to cry the equivilant of "praise the Lord" is no reason to attribute wider Islamist motives. On top of this are the historical Ottoman connctions to Allepo/Halep.

 

[Matthew Best]

What connections, other than religion, would you expect of a Turkish politician to have to Aleppo? It sure looks like a religious attack to me.

In what sense is a Turkish politician even involved in this?

 

[ponderingturtle]

How would Russia manage that?
Apart from capability Turkey is also part of NATO

So what we are going to leave NATO anyway, why not sell turkey to the russians as our first part of it?

 

[McHrozni]

Most Turks are religious. They see Muslim civilians of Aleppo as brothers and sisters.(...) there is no reason to attribute wider Islamist motives.

If a Christian man attacked a random Somali Muslim because Somali Muslims are killing Somali Christians and was screaming Praise the Lord or something similar to that, I'd attribute his attack to Christian motives. I'll do the same here and attribute it to Islamic motives. You're free to dispute me, but please present an argument or two as to why the religious motive wouldn't be prominent here. You even showed why the Islamic connection was the critical part. Which part of the motivation wasn't Islamic in nature again?

On top of this are the historical Ottoman connctions to Allepo/Halep.

Ottomans were Caliphs of Sunni Islam and the ruling dynasty of an Empire of whom Turkey was a constituent part. I know that the current Turkish chieftain (Islamic in ideology) has been reviving their importance recently, but let's not kid ourselves there is some sort of connection between Turkey and Syria that isn't inherently Islamic in nature.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

In what sense is a Turkish politician even involved in this?

In the sense that mistypes policeman as politician

McHrozni

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Allying himself with an overte Christian (orthodox) leader is not without risks for Erdogan. Russia has a very bad track record when dealing with Muslims.
I'm sure the attacker is not alone in his hatred of Russin intervention.

 

[marplots]

He seemed like a nice young man. Did he survive?

 

[McHrozni]

Allying himself with an overte Christian (orthodox) leader is not without risks for Erdogan. Russia has a very bad track record when dealing with Muslims.

Russia has a very bad track record when dealing with anyone.

McHrozni

 

[I Am The Scum]

If a Christian man attacked a random Somali Muslim because Somali Muslims are killing Somali Christians and was screaming Praise the Lord or something similar to that, I'd attribute his attack to Christian motives. I'll do the same here and attribute it to Islamic motives. You're free to dispute me, but please present an argument or two as to why the religious motive wouldn't be prominent here. You even showed why the Islamic connection was the critical part. Which part of the motivation wasn't Islamic in nature again?

You're conflating religious motivation with religious identity. Feeling more empathy with a person who is within one's group is not a theological issue. It's human nature. For perspective, the conflict in Northern Ireland was an issue of religious identity. To the best of my knowledge, it was not a doctrinal disagreement that got out of hand.

Right now, it's only safe to say that there was a political motivation. The fact that he shouted "Allahu Ackbar!" doesn't mean much to me, in the same sense that a lot of American gangbangers have cross tattoos and pictures of Jesus on their wall. It would be irrational to casually conclude that there is a relationship between their religion and their violence.

 

[caveman1917]

Right now, it's only safe to say that there was a political motivation. The fact that he shouted "Allahu Ackbar!" doesn't mean much to me, in the same sense that a lot of American gangbangers have cross tattoos and pictures of Jesus on their wall. It would be irrational to casually conclude that there is a relationship between their religion and their violence.

Until recently East-Aleppo was under control of radical Jihadist groups. The gunman shouted "Allahu Akbar" and clearly stated that his action was revenge for Aleppo.

 

[William Parcher]

The shooter's gun set off the metal detector at the art gallery but he showed his police ID and was allowed to enter.

 

[Babbylonian]

I wouldn't call being anti-Assad Islamic terrorism. Nor are all crimes committed by Muslims Islamic terrorism.

In the absence of other context, I'd call being anti-Assad a potential indicator of sanity and decency. The fact that we happen to share an enemy with him doesn't make him any less a monster.

If we came up with a way to defeat ISIL tomorrow, I would want the plan to include taking out Assad.

 

[trustbutverify]

Only if the shooter represents people who absolutely hate even the concept of diplomacy. Ambassadors should be considered off-limits for violence by any civilized people. I hate Putin (and, by extension, any representative of his government) as much as anybody but if credentialed ambassadors (and, by extension, their embassies) are to be considered legitimate targets then no one is off-limits.

I agree, but after hearing RT and the rest of Putin's massive propaganda array's never-ending lectures on the concept of "blowback"...

 

[Babbylonian]

I agree, but after hearing RT and the rest of Putin's massive propaganda array's never-ending lectures on the concept of "blowback"...

We've got [at least] three heads of state who are monsters and a collection of terrorists over there. In my darker moments, I think the US position should be to stay as far out of it as we possibly can and then figure out how to eliminate the winner(s).

That our incoming head of state is also a monster hardly makes the decisions any easier.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If a Christian man attacked a random Somali Muslim because Somali Muslims are killing Somali Christians and was screaming Praise the Lord or something similar to that, I'd attribute his attack to Christian motives.

I find it hard to believe that you would but if you would you would be in a small select group.

We had an MP murdered by a right wing nut job to 'take our country back' recently and I don't remember anyone prominent on the right calling it Christian Extremist Terrorism or White Supremacist Terrorism or Xenophobic Extremist Terrorism or Anti-Islamic Terrorism.

The perpetrator was certainly not tried as a terrorist. A description which certainly would sit better with his act than with this one.

 

[Geezer]

I find it hard to believe that you would but if you would you would be in a small select group.

We had an MP murdered by a right wing nut job to 'take our country back' recently and I don't remember anyone prominent on the right calling it Christian Extremist Terrorism or White Supremacist Terrorism or Xenophobic Extremist Terrorism or Anti-Islamic Terrorism.

The perpetrator was certainly not tried as a terrorist. A description which certainly would sit better with his act than with this one.

I agree, and also would say that in what way does it seem like the ambassador was randomly chosen? The comparison in the post you quoted doesn't work for that reason as I see it.

 

[McHrozni]

You're conflating religious motivation with religious identity. Feeling more empathy with a person who is within one's group is not a theological issue. It's human nature. For perspective, the conflict in Northern Ireland was an issue of religious identity. To the best of my knowledge, it was not a doctrinal disagreement that got out of hand.

Right now, it's only safe to say that there was a political motivation. The fact that he shouted "Allahu Ackbar!" doesn't mean much to me, in the same sense that a lot of American gangbangers have cross tattoos and pictures of Jesus on their wall. It would be irrational to casually conclude that there is a relationship between their religion and their violence.

What evidence would you need to see in order to agree a casual relationship between their religion and their evidence?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

We had an MP murdered by a right wing nut job to 'take our country back' recently and I don't remember anyone prominent on the right calling it Christian Extremist Terrorism or White Supremacist Terrorism or Xenophobic Extremist Terrorism or Anti-Islamic Terrorism.

As far as I recall the MP was a white Christian, who was attacked due to her support for Remain in the Brexit debate. The motive was political and had nothing to do with Christian extremism, Supremacism or anti-Islamic terrorism (which doesn't exist ... yet), but it had to do with misguided British nationalism. While this is certainly as bad as any of those, that's the reason why it's not considered any of those. We certainly don't attribute every mayhem caused by a Muslim to Islamic terrorism (i.e. PKK attacks in Turkey are almost always nationalist in nature even though Kurds are mostly Muslim) and there is no reason to use a different set of standards for everyone else.

The perpetrator was certainly not tried as a terrorist. A description which certainly would sit better with his act than with this one.

Why do you say that? While I agree that murder could be considered to fit the definition of terrorism, why do you consider it a better example of terrorism than the stabbing attack?

We're talking about these two incidents, specifically:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jo_Cox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Ohio_State_University_attack

You seem to claim the first attack a better example of terrorism than the second. I challenge you to substantiate that claim.

McHrozni

 

[Darth Rotor]

On the other hand, since Turkey controls Russian access to the Mediterranean,

It's slightly more complicated than that: Montreaux Convention.

During peacetime, light surface vessels [defined as warships displacing more than 100 tons but not above 10,000 tons] of all powers may transit the straits after giving prior notice to Turkey as required by the Convention. Turkey may waive the notification requirement if the warships were transiting for the purpose of providing humanitarian assistance. The choice of "light surface vessels" as the largest warship allowed through the straits effectively kept the new German "pocket battleships" out of the Black Sea -- a primary goal of the Soviet negotiators.

Capital ships of Black Sea powers may transit the straits provided that they did so in accordance with the Convention. The Black Sea powers (the Soviet Union, Bulgaria, and Romania) had two additional options, one involving submarines and the other permitting their "capital ships" with a tonnage greater than 10,000 to transit the straits.

Both Putin and Erdoğan are on the same page hinting some group/foreign power being behind this. Both are claiming disrupting the Turkish-Russian realtionship as a motive.

Yeah, good call.

The shooter's gun set off the metal detector at the art gallery but he showed his police ID and was allowed to enter.

Thanks for that, had not heard that.