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Russia invades Georgia

geni said:
Maybe but inflateing the figures that far is kinda risky.
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True enough.

I note a bunch of rhetoric in this thread about Georgia entering NATO. Possibly one of the dumbest ideas ever.

It is neither northern, nor atlantic . . .

As I've said before, NATO ought to be asking Russia to join.

DR
 
CapelDodger said:
I support the Russians protecting the South Ossetians from Georgians. People count even when they're not "internationally recognised", and anyway, South Ossetia does have international recognition. There are Russian troops stationed in South Ossetia in accordance with a treaty signed after the last Georgian invasion. That constitutes international recognition.
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Care to provide some evidence to the claim that the Georgians are acting cruelly towards the South Ossetians?

Care to provide some evidence to the claim that stationing Russian troops in South Ossetia constitutes international recognition?

CapelDodger said:
The Georgians have no moral right to invade South Ossetia, or to claim it against the wishes of its population. The Georgian borders that "international law" recognises were laid down by Lenin and Stalin, which does not make them legitimate or viable.
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So even though the current borders are the ones agreed upon by Russia and Georgia when Georgia became independent, they don't count anyway?
 
Considering the information the Russian newsagencies where providing during the last year's confrontation with Estonia, I have little faith in what they say. I would certainly wait for an independent confimation for what they call a "genocide".

My solution: peacekeeping forces from third countries for couple of years (in Abkhazia as well) should be fair to everyone and show how much of this separatism is real and to what extent it's a result of Russias meddling. But this is never going to happen and it's too late now anyway .
 
geni said:
Maybe but inflateing the figures that far is kinda risky.
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Internationally? Perhaps, but in Russia, the Pravda has already accused Washington of orchestrating the entire thing. I doubt anyone will seriously call him on it there.

I suppose we'll know better once the dust clears up and more objective figures and facts are available; but you don't really have to stretch the facts too far on this one before Russia looks like the good guy.
 
Georgia has bombed Southern Ossezia, a tiny State, equivalent to a medium-size Italian province. Estimates put the number of deaths at 1300. Almost all of them civilians. So Russia invaded Ossezia with its tanks and proceeded to bomb the Georgian Capital, Tiblisi. Meanwhile, Putin and Bush were exchanging niceties at the Olympics of Hypocrisy and the European Union failed to say a word. This is a new kind of war that is all about energy. From Kazakhstan, gas and crude oil could be sent to Europe without passing through Russian territory. Georgia is being provided with arms by Israel and the United States. Georgia’s President gets himself photographed standing between the national flag and that of the European Union, of which Georgia wants to become a member.
Ossezia is yet another episode in the global war over crude oil, which began with the first invasion of Iraq in 1991. Saddam attacked Kuwait and Bush senior intervened. Not to liberate the place but to prevent Saddam from controlling the flow of crude oil from the Persian Gulf. Bush junior continued the task begun earlier by his father, using the cock and bull excuse of some or other weapons of mass destruction. Do you honestly believe that the Americans actually give a damn about the inhabitants of either Kuwait or Iraq, especially given the fact that they failed to lift a finger to stop the genocide taking place in Rwanda and Darfur?
China, instead, buys crude oil from Iran and is probably selling arms to that country. Iran wants to replace the petro-Dollar with the Petro-Euro. Israel threatens to bomb Iran because of its nuclear power development policies. Chechnya is a place of strategic importance for the Russian oil pipelines. This is the real reason behind the Chechnyan massacres and the ongoing state of war. The world is divided into zones based on the control of crude oil supplies. Wherever there are oil wells, there is also (almost always) an ongoing war or a military occupation. Any area of strategic importance for the passage of crude oil is also (almost always) the scene of armed conflict. The G8+1 (China) and -1 (Italy) gathers regularly to agree on energy control zones. No war must be allowed to break out amongst the members of this group, so instead they allow their subjects to be massacred during the course of minor wars in obscure outposts that (also) happen to purchase their weapons. A dual business: arms and crude oil.
Fortunate are those without oil wells, for they will inherit peace.

http://www.beppegrillo.it/eng/2008/08/the_global_war_over_crude_oil_1.html#comments
 
So Georgia tries to retake its territory from rebels who attack and bomb Georgian villages, and it's the aggressor? Then the Russians drive in to attack Georgian villages, and their their the good guys in this?

Unfortunately for that view, the Presidents of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland disagree.

Oh, and the people of Georgia are behind the government too. If anything, this might strengthen President Saakashvili. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552358.stm

Not a good situation at all.
 
The 2+2=5 bull most western media is showing about this conflict goes a long way to validate my other "conspiracy theories", all of which have to do with governments manufacturing public consent for wars.

I'm a big fan of Saakashvili's economic reforms (which didn't really start baring fruit yet), but all of that has now been invalidated by this stunt.

There's a new Evil Empire in the world, boys and girls, its name is NATO and, guess what... You're paying for it!
 
Wildy said:
Care to provide some evidence to the claim that the Georgians are acting cruelly towards the South Ossetians?
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Their behaviour towards civilians in the last war is well documented, and this assault was started with an indiscriminate shelling of Tskhinvali (which contains no military installations).

Care to provide some evidence to the claim that stationing Russian troops in South Ossetia constitutes international recognition?
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The Russian troops were stationed in South Ossetia under an international agreement, which means that South Ossetia has diplomatic recognition. That principle emerged in the 19thCE, mostly for cynical imperialist purposes but it still stands.

South Ossetia's independence has not been diplomatically recognised, but that's a different matter.



So even though the current borders are the ones agreed upon by Russia and Georgia when Georgia became independent, they don't count anyway?
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I've yet to see where the Russians agreed a border with the Georgians that included Abkhazia and South Ossetia - neither of which the Georgians have exerted actual authority over.
 
Wire said:
The message Russia is sending to it's neghbours is the same what Hitler sent when taking bites from Czechoslovakia. (Swedish foreign minister said that, not me: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5giaShBm79g_Ie5SiGsSI4Plg_n4Q)
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That analogy only works if Russia intends a permanent occupation and annexation of Georgia, for which there is not the slightest shred of evidence.

The hyperbole some people are hurling about is a bit ridiculous, frankly.
 
Uzzy said:
So Georgia tries to retake its territory from rebels who attack and bomb Georgian villages ...
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What do you base that on?

And it's not Georgia's territory - its the South Ossetians' territory.

Then the Russians drive in to attack Georgian villages, and their their the good guys in this?
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The Russians attacked the Georgian army and drove it out (almost) of South Ossetia.

Unfortunately for that view, the Presidents of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland disagree.
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"And can we have some more free toys from NATA, please?"

Oh, and the people of Georgia are behind the government too. If anything, this might strengthen President Saakashvili. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552358.stm
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It's always like that when the bombs are dropping, but in the drab days after the conflict people start to wonder what it was all for, especially if they lost. Look what happened to Milosevic.

Not a good situation at all.
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War never is, IMO, but Saakashvili and his entourage clearly think differently.
 
egslim said:
I missed your posts though, since you pretty much stopped posting in politics a while ago. Does your participation in this thread mean you're back?
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Purely by accident, via Current Events (which struck me as the logical Forum for this subject, what with the events being current an' all). When this is over I'll go back to the gentler atmosphere of the Science Forum :).
 
Uzzy said:
So Georgia tries to retake its territory from rebels who attack and bomb Georgian villages, and it's the aggressor? Then the Russians drive in to attack Georgian villages, and their their the good guys in this?
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We have good guys and bad guys now? As mentioned in previous places in this thread, the Ossetians, in all discernible ways, do not want to be a part of Georgia. They prefer to be a quasi-state of Russia. Is it so hard to believe that people in some parts of the world may actually like Russia?

Uzzy said:
Unfortunately for that view, the Presidents of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland disagree.

Oh, and the people of Georgia are behind the government too. If anything, this might strengthen President Saakashvili. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552358.stm
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Good for Georgia. They'll at least get some nationalism out of this.

I feel bad for the innocents that will die in this war, but I find no remorse for a Georgian government who broke a cease fire by killing Russian peace keepers.

I have no doubt that since the cease fire there have been all types of provocation by both sides. That said, what type of elected official enrages neighboring Russia? A Russia that, as of late, seems to have been hoping for a fight. Right and wrong aside, that's at best stupidity and at worst lunacy. Not to mention that this is all over a small patch of land inhabited by people who hate Georgia so much they kicked them and their sorry army out once before.
 
afaik is South Ossetian officialy part of georgia but the majority of ppl would like to be part of Russia. I didnt hear anything about terrorism from Ossetians.

according to the press was Georgia the one started killing civillians. then Russia came in to help (but it seems also russia killed alot civilians.)

we hear alot what politicans say, and the only few interviews with ppl that live there say. A total unnesecary war. War is not needed etc.....
 
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