Rumsfeld to face possible charges

[SezMe]

Karpinski was the CO - private contractors, CIA, and everyone else at Abu Ghraib were under her command. She had no excuse for allowing anyone to enter her prison and do anything w/o her approval.

No, she was not the commander of the CIA people, private contractors, or "everyone else".

From here: "In letters and e-mails to family members, Frederick repeatedly noted that the military-intelligence teams, which included C.I.A. officers and linguists and interrogation specialists from private defense contractors, were the dominant force inside Abu Ghraib."

Look, Wildcat, I am not interested in carrying water for Karpinski; she effed up royally. But I don't think the situation was as simple and clear cut as you seem to want to make it. In addition, the investigation into assigning blame has some serious flaws so I don't think, between those problems and the limited information available to us due to classified information, that we have enough information to place the sole blame on Karpinski.

But then, I hate Hitler/Bush so you can discount any info I might put on the table.

 

[geni]

By "his" you mean the Sudanese gov't?

No serbia.

Yadda yadda yadda... Might as well say "the Devil made me do it!"

I'm not aware of any such defence being used in such a case.

Which "senior officers"? Please provide names.

He didn't say.

I never claimed I did, unlike you...

I didn't claim to have photos either.

I'm having trouble finding the story where Rumsfeld orders the naked pyramid stack, could you be specific?

I didn't claim that.

Link?

You have enough information to find one but:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/040524fa_fact?040524fa_fact

Nonsense. Providing evidence of a direct order for his actions would be huge for his defense.

Obeying orders would not be a defence in that case. That principle is fairly firmly established.

Without any evidence at all?

Sure. Of course the judge will then state that there is no case to answer but that is the acussers problem.

Which orders?

Anywhere where he has said anything about the treatment of prisoners ever. With enough ah creative interpritation of the law you can probably find something. But hey nothing to stop you contacting the prosicution and asking them.

Terrible times for justice, when legal advice can be deemed a criminal act.

It already can be in Florida at least. I don't worry about the laws of other states so much.

 

[geni]

It wasn't 1945 when "we found out", but when it became undeniable, and when we could do something about it.

Even during the war, and with aerial reconnisance and intelligence, I'm certain the Allies had no idea of the scale or depth of the genocidal outrage that was going on.

They were fighting a war mistakes were going to be made.

Eisenhower dealt with it appropriately when the camps were liberated:

Yes he was a smart guy.

I think it was more a matter of recognizing the extent of depravity possible, and rising to the challenge of world legislation to address it.

An objective look at history would have meant we already knew what was posible. The difference was that the camps hit people at an emotional level.

Imagine battle-hardened soldiers being repulsed and shocked, as if they had not already been through Hell and back.

The US forces had been fighting a relitivaly honorable war against another conventional army. The camps were something else. If they had beeing fighting a war like say the Liberian Civil War I doubt they would have had the same effect.

 

[Beerina]

Yeah, good luck with that.

What? You don't think Germany has jurisdiction over the US, the US's base in Cuba, Cuba, or Iraq? Shows what you know!

 

[Gurdur]

It's now a sure bet Rumsfeld won't be going for his holidays in the EU.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
It wasn't 1945 when "we found out", but when it became undeniable, and when we could do something about it.

Even during the war, and with aerial reconnisance and intelligence, I'm certain the Allies had no idea of the scale or depth of the genocidal outrage that was going on.

They were fighting a war mistakes were going to be made.

No doubt about it, and like I wrote, even with intelligence indicating that systematic murder was occurring, until the scale was actually discovered upon arrival, it was likely not believed until it was actually seen and confirmed.

Quote:
Eisenhower dealt with it appropriately when the camps were liberated:

Yes he was a smart guy.

Thank God he was on our side.

Quote:
I think it was more a matter of recognizing the extent of depravity possible, and rising to the challenge of world legislation to address it.

An objective look at history would have meant we already knew what was posible. The difference was that the camps hit people at an emotional level.

Good point, but even with study of genocide, the extent and intensity of events the Holocaust or even the 100 Days in Rwanda are difficult for the human mind to grasp.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Good point, but even with study of genocide, the extent and intensity of events the Holocaust or even the 100 Days in Rwanda are difficult for the human mind to grasp.

The holocaust should be easier to understand as it was a lower rate of death than Rwanda. Rwanda is the John Henry of genocide showing that with enough human will you can beat the death rates of fancy death camps like the nazi's had.

 

[Polaris]

That's your idea of a system of justice? Torture everyone, then bring manslaughter charges against the interrogators when someone is later found to be innocent? You honestly can't think of a better way THAN THAT?

Are you sure that's your contention? Because you still have a chance to rethink that concept.

No, I said torture is acceptable if the people being tortured are Taliban or al-Qaida. There should have been a better system to determine who was who.
What I object to is the idea that there is something wrong with the torture and death of guys like Habibullah.

Manslaughter seems like a reasonable charge in this case because the intent did not seem to be to kill Diwali.

Even using my standards as laid out before, which are a lot lower than the ones the Pentagon should be using, Diwali would not be dead. He was a native Afghan, after all.

 

[Polaris]

And you will never know because they never got a trial. Isn't that what a trial is for, to decide their guilt or innocence?

And don't forget, this same thing was done to many US citizens in the US. They were held for months and years without charges, legal councel, access to family members, or trial.

Once you suspend one right, you have pretty much suspended them all.

This should absolutely not happen to US Citizens - could you clarify, are you talking about recently or the WW2 Japanese internment camps?

 

[Unabogie]

No, I said torture is acceptable if the people being tortured are Taliban or al-Qaida. There should have been a better system to determine who was who.

Interesting opinion. So you advocate torturing, for no reason other than torturing as a means of punishing people for their association with groups you deem wrong.

I'd be fascinated to know if there were groups based in the US you would afford similar punishment?

The KKK?

The Michigan Militia?

NAMBLA?

Operation Rescue?

The Kiwanis Club?

Amazingly, our system actually requires people to commit a crime other than belonging to a group that is verboten before we can punish them. Something about "freedom of association" or some such claptrap. And then goes further to prohibit "cruel and unusual punishment".

I always thought that the right wing in our country were "strict constructionists" who swore allegiance to the text of the Constitution?

It appears to me that there is a serious authoritarian wing in our country who want to abolish what makes us great in order to save us from a group of fanatical Muslims. I'll let you answer for yourself as to whether or not you include yourself in that abominable group of cowards.

 

[Unabogie]

This should absolutely not happen to US Citizens - could you clarify, are you talking about recently or the WW2 Japanese internment camps?

Are you unaware of the case of Jose Padilla?

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/10/bush-administrations-torture-of-us.html

 

[hammegk]

... because all christians are Crusaders too. We should start imprisoning them as well.

You should run for elected office on that platform.

 

[Dave1001]

Still not entirely sure what's so horrible about subjecting Taliban and al-Qaida to rough treatment.

And this, my friends, is how fascism will enter America in the 21st century. Not by wearing a nazi uniform or an I :heart: Stalin button.

 

[Huntster]

I think Polaris's post just reveals that he hates Muslims because (he thinks) they are all jihadists. That's ok, though, because all christians are Crusaders too. We should start imprisoning them as well.

Who are you gonna get to round up all those nasty Christians in this country?

 

[Unabogie]

Who are you gonna get to round up all those nasty Christians in this country?

The Hindus, of course!

Silly!