Rumsfeld to face possible charges

[WildCat]

Darfur: actions carried out by a non goverment mititia and you can be finding any links will be hard.

You're deluded if you think the janjaweed aren't operating w/ the tacit support of the Sudanese gov't.

Iraq: actions carried out by goverment troops

Who either have already been punished by said gov't or whose trials or charges are pending.

 

[WildCat]

You can argue against universal jurisdiction all you want, the fact that it is apparently impossible to bring charges against certain people in the US would - if I were an US citizen - concern me much more.

Charges by whose laws? Perhaps the US should start enforcing its laws in Germany. We could start by charging all German officials who are violating the free speech rights of holocaust deniers. Isn't universal jurisdiction grand!

 

[geni]

You're deluded if you think the janjaweed aren't operating w/ the tacit support of the Sudanese gov't.

Sure now prove it.

Who either have already been punished by said gov't or whose trials or charges are pending.

And all of whom tried the "we were only obeying orders" line.

 

[geni]

Charges by whose laws? Perhaps the US should start enforcing its laws in Germany. We could start by charging all German officials who are violating the free speech rights of holocaust deniers. Isn't universal jurisdiction grand!

Nyet. Would be trivial to defend against useing the same defence that anyone not allowing freedom of speach on prive propety would use.

A better example might be say North Dakota going after all those people have sex with 14 year olds in germany. Of course to inforce any such ruleings they would have to wait for the person to enter North Dakota.

 

[WildCat]

Sure now prove it.

Much more evidence for that than Rumsfeld gave Lynndie England a direct order to make a naked pyramid and then to have it photographed w/ her giving the "thumbs up" sign.

And all of whom tried the "we were only obeying orders" line.

No, they didn't all try that. And none has been able to name anyone who allegedly gave such orders.

The latest to be charged, a Lt. Colonel, is claiming he knew nothing about it.

Fact is, there is no evidence at all that anyone charged thus far in the Abu Ghraib scandal did so on orders from Washington.

 

[geni]

Much more evidence for that than Rumsfeld gave Lynndie England a direct order to make a naked pyramid and then to have it photographed w/ her giving the "thumbs up" sign.

The link provides no evidence of a conection in sudan. You might be wanting to remeber a certian Slobodan Milošević

No, they didn't all try that. And none has been able to name anyone who allegedly gave such orders.

Some tried. Enough that the pictures ended up in the public domain.

The latest to be charged, a Lt. Colonel, is claiming he knew nothing about it.

What else is he going to claim?

Fact is, there is no evidence at all that anyone charged thus far in the Abu Ghraib scandal did so on orders from Washington.

Well of course not. We assume that people in washington are not completely incompetant. However that is not what the case is being built around.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It could have more easily been prevented by the person in charge of the prison, but she has decided to blame everyone else but herself and has become a minor hero to the "Bush is Hitler" crowd. She was, after all, actually there every day. I don't think Rumsfeld and Bush ever set foot in Agu Ghraib, but hey let's blame them to achieve a political agenda.

Yep, but the issue with being in charge is that the buck stops with you. The change in the poorly trained guards orders, when that happened the results could have been predicted.

 

[WildCat]

The link provides no evidence of a conection in sudan. You might be wanting to remeber a certian Slobodan Milošević

All but a few civilians have fled this town in Sudan's troubled Darfur region. Instead, Tine's marketplace is filled with feared janjaweed fighters sporting flip-flops, assault rifles, and a mishmash of uniforms and T-shirts. African Union (AU) commanders say more than 1,000 janjaweed militiamen arrived in town just over two weeks ago to back up 3,000 government troops.
Under a peace agreement signed last May, Sudan's government was supposed to disarm the janjaweed and inform the AU commanders of any troop movements. They have done neither. In fact, the arrival of the fighters in this border town is fresh evidence that the government is remobilizing the janjaweed and other irregular Arab militias in large numbers.

Some tried. Enough that the pictures ended up in the public domain.

Who tried? Who did they name? You have a picture of Rumsfeld ordering abuse at Abu Ghraib?

What else is he going to claim?

I thought your position was that they all tried the "we were only obeying orders" line?

Well of course not.

So you're going to have a trial, despite a complete lack of evidence?

We assume that people in washington are not completely incompetant. However that is not what the case is being built around.

And yet you admit there is no evidence, so what is the case being built around?

And why does no one seem troubled that an attorney (Alberto Gonzalez) is being charged for nothing but giving legal advice? Is this common in Germany?

 

[WildCat]

Yep, but the issue with being in charge is that the buck stops with you.

Clarify what you mean.

The change in the poorly trained guards orders, when that happened the results could have been predicted.

What changes in the orders? How does being "poorly trained" give one an excuse to abuse those under their charge?

 

[a_unique_person]

I can't believe this isn't a joke. Universal jurisdiction? Ummm...no.

Thanks for playing. Go eat some bratwurst.

AS

So how did the Nuremburg trials happen?

 

[WildCat]

So how did the Nuremburg trials happen?

I don't recall losing a war to Germany recently, maybe my memory is bad?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Clarify what you mean.

That the people in charge have to take responceability for the results that their policy caused

What changes in the orders? How does being "poorly trained" give one an excuse to abuse those under their charge?

Being poorly trained for the task you are given is a good reason why you do your task poorly. It is like arming people and telling them it is their job to stop crime and giving them no special training. If you set up such a system you are responceible when they shoot someone as well as them.

It is the sort of thing a majority of the population would have done in the same situation, how much of a crime can that be then?

As for people who talk about humiliation as if it was nothing, isn't that the fundamental part of rape anyway? Not inflicting any physical pain but controling what someone does and forceing them to do what you want. If humiliation is nothing big, why should rape be a serious crime?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Yeah, I'm sure that those people filed suit all on their own accord, and weren't aided at all by someone w/ an anti-US agenda.

Hans: Look Franz, there is an ongoing genocide in Darfur, we should try to do something about it!
Franz: Never mind that, the evil fascist Bush regime is making naked pyramids in Abu Ghraib!
Hans: Mein Gott, we must put an end to this madness!

You were never one to let the facts stand in the way of a good paranoid fantasy. However, the Center for Constitutional Rights is a US based institution and few, if any, of its employees are called Hans or Fritz.

 

[geni]

Proveing his involvement turned out somewhat difficult

Who tried? Who did they name?

Ivan Frederick: either Lt. Col. Ronald Chew or Lt. Col. Jerry Phillabaum

Lynndie England:instructed by persons in higher ranks

Charles Graner:senior officers were aware of the activities and actively supported them

You have a picture of Rumsfeld ordering abuse at Abu Ghraib?

Of course not. Do you have a photo of Omar al-Bashir giving orders to the Janjaweed?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=special+interrogation+plan+Rumsfeld&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


Then of course there is Seymour Hersh's "Copper Green" stuff.

I thought your position was that they all tried the "we were only obeying orders" line?

This is a somewaht more recent case. I assume he knows that he has at least semi plauseable deniabilty and is smart enough to know that obeying orders is useless defence

So you're going to have a trial, despite a complete lack of evidence?

A lot of legal systems allow private prossicutions.

And yet you admit there is no evidence, so what is the case being built around?

Probably badly worded executive orders for the most part.

And why does no one seem troubled that an attorney (Alberto Gonzalez) is being charged for nothing but giving legal advice? Is this common in Germany?

I doubt trials under crimes against humanity stuff are comnmon in germany.

 

[geni]

I don't recall losing a war to Germany recently, maybe my memory is bad?

Unhelpful.

In 1945 after we had found out what had gone on it became convient to tell ourselves that we were nothing like that and what the nazis had done was an exception that we would never add to.

In order to do this we held the Nuremburg trials. In an attempt to make it look like more than victors justice we talked about the principles being universal.

Thus in order to avoid guilt due to the actions of the nazis we created a universal principle of crimes against humanity. Like any belief system it has it's ups and downs. It allows saddam and Milošević to be prosicuted in a way that can at least pretend not to be victors justice. On the other hand people may sometimes try to apply the principles to you.

 

[SezMe]

It could have more easily been prevented by the person in charge of the prison, but she has decided to blame everyone else but herself and has become a minor hero to the "Bush is Hitler" crowd. She was, after all, actually there every day.

But wasn't in charge of all of those who did the torture. Some were CIA and other such groups. Some were even private contractors. These types did NOT report to Karpinski, did not AFAIK even tell her that they were operating in her facility.

As an aside, your incessant put down of those who disagree with you by, for example, calling them the "Bush is Hitler crowd" is tiresome and adolescent.

 

[Huntster]

....In 1945 after we had found out what had gone on it became convient to tell ourselves that we were nothing like that and what the nazis had done was an exception that we would never add to.

It wasn't 1945 when "we found out", but when it became undeniable, and when we could do something about it.

Even during the war, and with aerial reconnisance and intelligence, I'm certain the Allies had no idea of the scale or depth of the genocidal outrage that was going on.

Eisenhower dealt with it appropriately when the camps were liberated:

It’s interesting that even when he came to Ohrdruf, which was a sub-camp of Buchenwald, in April 1945, General [Dwight] Eisenhower was aware that there was the possibility of Holocaust denial. And he wrote a letter to his wife Mamie to the effect that, we have to keep this memory alive and document the fact that these things happened, or else -- and I’m paraphrasing and not quoting here -- or else somehow people will not believe that it actually happened. Eisenhower said this in a letter to his wife, and we have this letter in the [Holocaust Memorial] Museum. Because, they were very much aware that what had happened, what the American soldiers saw, was so extraordinary and so brutal that people either might not believe it, or else they might turn away from the photographs. Which is in fact what happened in 1945: American newsreels carried some of the footage from places like Bergen-Belsen and Dachau and other camps, Buchenwald, and there was a kind of turning-away after awhile because of the sheer brutality of what had happened there. So the early liberators, such as Eisenhower, were very much aware of that, that it was necessary to document what had happened, which is one of the things that we try to do at the museum -- that’s one of our main functions since the very beginning is to document everything that we can.

Thus in order to avoid guilt due to the actions of the nazis we created a universal principle of crimes against humanity.

I think it was more a matter of recognizing the extent of depravity possible, and rising to the challenge of world legislation to address it.

Imagine battle-hardened soldiers being repulsed and shocked, as if they had not already been through Hell and back.

 

[WildCat]

But wasn't in charge of all of those who did the torture. Some were CIA and other such groups. Some were even private contractors. These types did NOT report to Karpinski, did not AFAIK even tell her that they were operating in her facility.

As an aside, your incessant put down of those who disagree with you by, for example, calling them the "Bush is Hitler crowd" is tiresome and adolescent.

Karpinski was the CO - private contractors, CIA, and everyone else at Abu Ghraib were under her command. She had no excuse for allowing anyone to enter her prison and do anything w/o her approval.

Yeah, I'm an adolescent...

 

[WildCat]

Proveing his involvement turned out somewhat difficult

By "his" you mean the Sudanese gov't?

Ivan Frederick: either Lt. Col. Ronald Chew or Lt. Col. Jerry Phillabaum

Lynndie England:instructed by persons in higher ranks

Yadda yadda yadda... Might as well say "the Devil made me do it!"

Charles Graner:senior officers were aware of the activities and actively supported them

Which "senior officers"? Please provide names.

Of course not. Do you have a photo of Omar al-Bashir giving orders to the Janjaweed?

I never claimed I did, unlike you...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=special+interrogation+plan+Rumsfeld&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

I'm having trouble finding the story where Rumsfeld orders the naked pyramid stack, could you be specific?

Then of course there is Seymour Hersh's "Copper Green" stuff.

Link?

This is a somewaht more recent case. I assume he knows that he has at least semi plauseable deniabilty and is smart enough to know that obeying orders is useless defence

Nonsense. Providing evidence of a direct order for his actions would be huge for his defense.

A lot of legal systems allow private prossicutions.

Without any evidence at all?

Probably badly worded executive orders for the most part.

Which orders?

I doubt trials under crimes against humanity stuff are comnmon in germany.

Terrible times for justice, when legal advice can be deemed a criminal act.

 

[Gurdur]

Charges by whose laws? Perhaps the US should start enforcing its laws in Germany. We could start by charging all German officials who are violating the free speech rights of holocaust deniers. Isn't universal jurisdiction grand!

Brilliant. You're putting alleged "free speech rights of holocaust deniers" on an ethical equivalent par with actually being responsible for actual physical torture without due process of law?

Way to go with the moral relativism!