Rosemary Altea

[Expression_man]

To avoid confusion. When I said...

If you're talking about the mystery box then it gets complicated.

In this instance I am referring to Randi's mystery box. I was unable to edit that post due to the time having expired (120mins).

 

[Moochie]

You have OOB experiences? You want to prove it in order to claim the $1m JREF Challenge?

ROFLMAO


M.

 

[Expression_man]

You have OOB experiences? You want to prove it in order to claim the $1m JREF Challenge?

I'd be lying if I said it meant nothing to me. If I'm not already too late then I'd have to call into question the integrity of the JREF.

It may just be my inferiority complex but I don't think I'll be the one to prove the existence of the "human soul" or whatever it's supposed to be.

It'd be good though, no doubt. It's definitely worth a lot more to people than any currency.

So, now people are trying to buy proof of their own souls (those are the insinuations).

/sigh

I wonder if such a thing can be tempted with money.

 

[Moochie]

I'd be lying if I said it meant nothing to me. If I'm not already too late then I'd have to call into question the integrity of the JREF.

It may just be my inferiority complex but I don't think I'll be the one to prove the existence of the "human soul" or whatever it's supposed to be.

It'd be good though, no doubt. It's definitely worth a lot more to people than any currency.

So, now people are trying to buy proof of their own souls (those are the insinuations).

/sigh

I wonder if such a thing can be tempted with money.

I've been reviewing the "Beyond Belief" http://beyondbelief2006.org/Watch/ series of videos, and, frankly, I am amazed that anyone would be making the claims that you are making.

I had "OOB" experiences back in the 60s, thanks to LSD. While at the time I attributed these experiences to all kinds of gods, subsequent learning and experience has taught me that when you press button "A," certain consequences follow. You are at liberty to verify this for yourself.

The brain is a marvelous thing. Don't be fooled.

M.

 

[Expression_man]

I had "OOB" experiences back in the 60s, thanks to LSD.

I don't take drugs. I don't drink and I don't smoke. I think you're failing to take into account the loss of control you must have had during those experiences.

Do you think that we don't have members in our community who are drug addicts?

They're quite fascinating. Sometimes you'll find someone so far into psychosis it's like listening to something from beyond the twilight zone. They usually describe a total lack of control and an experience which is either overwhelmingly positive or so negative that it chills even those who read it.

Do you think we don't listen to them?

We aim for control, we practice it. Sure, some people get so desperate that they stick needles in their arms. It's not the same, it quite often turns out bad for them. It sends them out of balance. They can get an experience so positive that coming back from it makes their waking state seem like hell. They can have one so bad that they scare themselves stupid.

While at the time I attributed these experiences to all kinds of gods, subsequent learning and experience has taught me that when you press button "A," certain consequences follow. You are at liberty to verify this for yourself.

The brain is a marvelous thing. Don't be fooled.

M.

My god were you ever uninformed to draw those kinds of conclusions, do you think I'm not familiar with what my own brain is capable of, I've manifest my worst fears in front of me. We're talking worst fears, stuff you have trouble imagining because of how terrifying they are (ask me to elaborate). I've experienced the pain of being shot in the throat/stabbed in the neck, unable to end the sessions while having to endure it for minutes on end. I've been able to taste words and hear smells. That sort of thing you probably can't even comprehend.

I've pushed my body to the brink by forcefully changing its temperature to induce a desired state. It was probably the stupidest thing I ever did but I learned something from it.

Do you think I lack the ability to critique my own experiences?

Bloody hell, man. Even I don't claim to fully understand it, yet you're coming up with all this vague "the brain does lots of stuff" stuff.

You're damn right it does!

Tell me something I don't know.

Edit: I'll share this with you. Should you ever find yourself in such a state and everything starts going to hell, with you being unable to end the session, think of something which excites you sexually

You thought I was going to say "say these magic words..."?

Hehehe, not quite. The moment you start thinking in the way I described you get your point of reference back very quickly and you'll be awake in no time. Since I found out by accident it's been a lot of help to me during sleep paralysis too.

I'd rather that people be aware of that before they have a bad experience which puts them off for life. If the experience is drug-induced, I don't know. I've never had a drug-induced experience, sounds crap though.

 

[alfaniner]

Time to split this thread.

 

[Expression_man]

The only thing that annoys me about this place is how dismissive it is. Then again, I see the reason for that. It's the same reason which keeps so many other people quiet about their own experiences.

No one talks! There's no learning being done. Peer pressure and superstition have set humanity back by hundreds of years!

First people get burned at the stake and then they get called crazy!

rarg!

Where's the love ;p

/foam

Edit: You can experience incredible things with altered states. You can make the best music you've ever heard and the most relaxing scenes you've ever immersed yourself in.

Consciousness is amazing.

 

[Jackalgirl]

Hi, EM --

I'm following with interest. I think you and Mercutio are working really well together and his suggestions are excellent insofar as designing a good protocol to play with.

I'll see if I can find your other thread (please post a link to it, if you would -- the fora are a big place!) and follow your actual tests there. I'm interested in the specific protocols you're using -- again, Mercutio's got some great ideas. Very interesting!

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The only thing miraculous about it, as far as many are concerned, is being able to sit there and pretend it's not happening.

And as far as many others are concerned it's merely a subjective experience that has no connection with reality.

When you exhibit less than a casual interest, yes.

Huh? Ok. I'll express no interest at all. Now prove to someone, anyone that you are not just another "Jesus Christ".

 

[BillyJoe]

Huh? Ok. I'll express no interest at all. Now prove to someone, anyone that you are not just another "Jesus Christ".

Em pegged you as someone who has no real interest in the subject except to dismiss out of hand without even listening to what he has to say, even if you do think it's all BS.
Seems he was right.

 

[BillyJoe]

The only thing that annoys me about this place is how dismissive it is.

There are probably two reasons for this:

1) I've been through it all before and I have decided it's all B.S.
2) I don't know very little about it but it all sounds like BS to me, so it is.

I don't why the first group bother.
The second group are not using their sceptical outlook to investigate claims relatively new to them.

Both can safely be ignored.
The JREF is like a dark cloud but with a silver lining.

 

[Jackalgirl]

The only thing that annoys me about this place is how dismissive it is.

Some of us, that's for sure. But it doesn't really matter. All that matters is that you come up with a properly-controlled test and demonstrate what you claim. There are enough of us here willing to help you do that -- as for the others? They can eat your data, no? ; )

 

[Moochie]

I don't take drugs. I don't drink and I don't smoke. I think you're failing to take into account the loss of control you must have had during those experiences.

The incident I referred to occurred in the early 70s, when I was in my early 20s. I took the LSD in the company of good friends, who also took it. We were young and perhaps stupid, but the experience of that night and day has never left us.

During subsequent years I researched all kinds of strange and wonderful phenomena, as a direct result of that initial LSD experience. Several decades later I am still researching -- it's something of abiding interest -- only nowadays I tend to be better at sorting the wheat from the chaff.

<snip>

But that's neither here nor there.

Work with those who care enough to develop a protocol and be tested.

I will sit bemusedly on the sidelines and watch.

M.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Em pegged you as someone who has no real interest in the subject except to dismiss out of hand without even listening to what he has to say, even if you do think it's all BS.
Seems he was right.

I'm having trouble parsing this.

So I'll restate my position in a little more detail. First, I do have an interest in OBEs. Not a huge interest but, if they really are real, I certainly would very much like to have it proven.

But, like other people I have read about and listened to in the past, I don't see any proof. Expression_Man believes. He has had experiences that prove to him that he has experienced OBE. Others here have experiences that appear to be exactly similar to his but have alternate and more mundane explanations.

What objective proof does he have that he has experienced an OBE? If a "Jesus Christ" was to perform a miracle I would certainly have to, at the very least, rethink my position.

I await the resuts of the on-going experiment.

 

[BillyJoe]

I'm having trouble parsing this.

Yeah, must have been dosing off a bit.

So I'll restate my position in a little more detail. First, I do have an interest in OBEs. Not a huge interest but, if they really are real, I certainly would very much like to have it proven.

But, like other people I have read about and listened to in the past, I don't see any proof. Expression_Man believes. He has had experiences that prove to him that he has experienced OBE. Others here have experiences that appear to be exactly similar to his but have alternate and more mundane explanations.

What objective proof does he have that he has experienced an OBE? If a "Jesus Christ" was to perform a miracle I would certainly have to, at the very least, rethink my position.

Fair enough.
Your first two posts sounded a bit dismissive, but I probably misinterpreted them. That's easy to do on a forum where there's no visual feedback.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You can speak to me directly, I'm right here. Why the third person reference?

You don't deserve that respect.

 

[Expression_man]

You don't deserve that respect.

Probably not, I think the same way about a lot of people here too. I can certainly understand your thinking well enough.

What objective proof does he have that he has experienced an OBE? If a "Jesus Christ" was to perform a miracle I would certainly have to, at the very least, rethink my position.

I'm not "a Jesus Christ", but I know what you mean by the idea. What I'm trying to convey is that anyone can do this. People want to feel secure by the notion that everything is explainable, to an extent, by current science.

Unfortunately, a lot of people get carried away with their thinking. I'll be the first to admit that I've been guilty of that. The first time I had an OOBE I thought that I'd been posessed by a demon. I was suspended in the air above my bed whilst trying to scream for help and unable to control my limbs. Being a christian, at that time, I had an entirely different way of thinking.

Olaf Blanke is supposedly having very limited success. As a result of that his conclusions fall short of what he has yet to discover, but that's obvious. The only thing in question is what the big picture looks like. Current science has no way of knowing, nor does anyone else. To assume that the "truth" has already been reached after poking around in the brain and getting a reaction is just wishful thinking. It's also supremely arrogant (like me maybe).

Current science might not prove the existence of an energy body any time soon, or ever, but that's only a problem if you actually wait for it to catch up. At the very least we need an explanation of NDE/OBE occurrences (are they even the same thing) and I mean all of them.

In the same way that many of you take it upon yourselves to educate others, I am just bringing something to your attention. How much consideration you give it is up to you. It only depends on how much of a taboo the concept has become in your worlds.

I have my own reality, I dislike being the focus of everyone else's. In that sense I am definitely not a "Jesus Christ".

 

[BillyJoe]

Em,

Let us know if you decide to put your OBEs to the test and how you intend to do this.
Experiences are interesting but, for most of us here, explaining what these experiences are is more interesting.
Do you have any thoughts along these lines?

 

[MadOverlord]

First of all, please excuse the discourtesy of some of the other posters. They ought to know better.

It seems to me that you have, indeed had some sort of interesting experience. The question is, was it really what you thought it was, and if so, how can one determine that experimentally.

The first time I had an OOBE I thought that I'd been posessed by a demon. I was suspended in the air above my bed whilst trying to scream for help and unable to control my limbs.

This sounds very much like sleep paralysis. You know what this is, but for others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

Sleep paralysis is often associated with lucid dreaming and hypnagogic hallucinations, which can produce the sensations you describe.

I can attest from personal experience that sleep paralysis, if you don't know what it is, can be deeply frightening. When I was 17, I took a nap on the couch, and woke up (facing in to the couch) totally paralysed. I could not move a muscle, not even open my eyes. I was terrified, I thought that somehow I had broken my neck or something. I spent what felt like the next half an hour desperately trying to alert my family, trying to make a sound or move even a finger. And then, suddenly, I could move again.

Your challenge here is to develop an experimental protocol that can distinguish your experience from these uncommon phenomena. I submit that whatever the results, by removing some doubt from the situation, your position will be improved.

The toughest part of being a skeptic is putting your own beliefs to the test. Good luck.

 

[Expression_man]

There are some things I want to comment on here.

I can attest from personal experience that sleep paralysis, if you don't know what it is, can be deeply frightening. When I was 17, I took a nap on the couch, and woke up (facing in to the couch) totally paralysed. I could not move a muscle, not even open my eyes. I was terrified, I thought that somehow I had broken my neck or something. I spent what felt like the next half an hour desperately trying to alert my family, trying to make a sound or move even a finger. And then, suddenly, I could move again.

Right, this is well-documented. And yes, if you don't know what it is then words cannot describe the horror of what you end up going through in some cases.

If you know what's going on, and are able to rationalize that panicking isn't going to help, you have an incredible opportunity to experiment. Depending on your mental state during paralysis you can have some incredible experiences. One of the theories is that it comes about in order to prevent us from causing ourselves physical harm by enacting our dreams.

An early experiment I did involved consciously asking to hear a "disturbing alien noise" (I loved getting a rush) and, sure enough, it came on almost immediately and would have scared the living crap out of me had I not known it was me creating it. It came on my right ear, very close and utterly surreal. I'd never heard anything like it, it was like experiencing a new colour for the first time. But, as I knew it was because of my request, I couldn't help but grin to myself. Paralysis broke almost immediately after my positive reaction to it.

I admit some fear though. During sleep paralysis I tend to keep my eyes shut as I have a tendency to fear the worst case scenario (my subconscious running away with manifestations). Well, "good stuff" happens too but I have trouble staying positive while in that state.

One time there was an entity standing next to my bed. He kept telling me about my faults and I was furious at being unable to react to him. I lashed out with a mental verbalization (which actually became audible in this instance) accusing him of not being who he said he was and that he wasn't "real". I then tried to scare him away by shouting but due to the paralysis all I could get out were pathetic wheezing noises. Then he had the nerve to kiss my forehead after which I was so angry he just vanished and I was able to sit up. Um, on my part that was an immature reaction to have had but I dislike being in a vulnerable position.

Your experience is interesting to me because I've never suffered paralysis for longer than what seems like a few minutes. I started getting regular sleep paralysis around the time I was playing with exit techniques.

The projected double however (what I was talking about in regards to my first OOBE) is difficult to control sometimes. Quite often I've just had to go along for the ride so to speak. Sometimes I even find myself forced into a specific position while it floats around. It can be quite spooky.

Your challenge here is to develop an experimental protocol that can distinguish your experience from these uncommon phenomena. I submit that whatever the results, by removing some doubt from the situation, your position will be improved.

I'll keep people updated but it's going to take time to seperate things. I have a mystery box set up in someone else's room (not done by me) and I'm eager for an opportunity to examine it (no, not physically).

Edit: Something else of interest. If I see (while having skewed awareness) my projected double from the perspective of my physical body (documented by Robert Bruce as being the "mind split effect") I tend to want to throw up immediately. My stomach feels like it's convulsing. Some people describe it as looking into a mirror and seeing infinity (two mirrors face to face). My experience was very short lived but some accounts involve being unable to tear your focus away from it.

It's an unwelcome experience but also fascinating.