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Rosemary Altea

BillyJoe said:
- You have experienced what it is like to be outside your body.
- You have experienced certain brain states which make you feel like you have experienced what it is like to be outside your body.

You have concluded that it's the former.
What exactly has led you to this conclusion?
Click to expand...

Obviously the answer is my own experiences, all of which I am not comfortable talking about but I will share one which might best explain it.

Tap the table in front of you. Sensory input. You heard sound, you felt touch.

One of my earlier experiences, wherein I was still having trouble moving about, my point of reference had been skewed. Half of my awareness was in my physical body and my other half was in my projected double. This is a very strange feeling but I couldn't help laughing to myself (in my mind) because it seemed so absurd.

Slowly, my awareness trickled into my projected double and I became less aware of my "sleeping position".

This is where it gets complex...

Sensory information.

Sight : 100% in my projected double but lost within a few seconds and now it's a first person perspective from my position on my bed

Motion/momentum/movement : From my projected double

Touch : Shared between my physical body and my projected double

Smell : Unimportant/can't remember

Taste : Unimportant/can't remember


So, I'm seeing things from my physical body but I'm getting information from my projection. I also lack the ability to navigate my environment properly and I find myself falling, from the perspective (not visual but motion) of my projected double.

I can feel myself falling through my bed and off to the side. I can't see anything but I can feel myself pass through the side table, I take in the sense of touch, it's wooden and I feel the surface as it corners off at the bottom and connects to the floor. I have no sight at this time.

I continue to fall (it's more like floating downwards really) and I'm thinking to myself "ack, where does that mean I am"?

The ceiling is quite thin, it doesn't take long until I am in the room below. I continue to fall and I have no idea of where I might be until I stop falling and I can feel the touch of what I know to be a leg rest.

My position is on my side, as it is in bed. Actually this is interesting. That would mean that my projected double is mimicking my physical body's popition (I rest/sleep on my side).

So this leg rest, which I recognise immediately (the moment I made contact with it) is now stopping me from falling. Hehe, I'm not sure why but I seemed to have stopped falling the moment I made contact with that particular object.

That's one example. Most of mine are usually 100% from the perspective of my projected double. I have also become conscious of my projected double while it has been in another room in the house. One time it was in the bathroom upstairs and I suddenly found myself in the dark (lights off and door closed because the room isn't in use).

These are difficult to describe in words but there's another sense you become privvy too while fully immerse in the double, it's a "knowingness". You know your environment and what is outside of it. You would think that sometimes not having sight would bother me but this other sense is much more preferable I assure you.

I'm sorry that you don't have anything other than only my word to go on. I'm certainly not the only one who experiences this, my brother also has it but to a much lesser extent. There are communities dedicated to it but, as is obvious, the integrity of the accounts is in question.
 
EM--

One need not project one's second self to the JREF office--if you know you can induce these states, even rarely, having an independent party put a card with a series of numbers on it in an agreed-upon location quite near you and familiar to you would be good enough, if there are sufficient controls to guard against cheating (intentional or otherwise--for instance, simple sleepwalking!). A videocamera, for instance, would be enough for a preliminary test (to test yourself, I mean; JREF encourages applicants to test themselves first, with appropriate controls in place, to save the applicant from potential embarrassment.). You could even re-use the same tape each night until a night you felt you had a successful OOBE; then check the tape to see that you had not simply sleepwalked, and have the independent party check your "seen" numbers against the actual ones. (I have oversimplified a bit here, due to time constraints, but it is a fairly simple procedure to check yourself.)
 
Mercutio said:
EM--

One need not project one's second self to the JREF office--if you know you can induce these states, even rarely, having an independent party put a card with a series of numbers on it in an agreed-upon location quite near you and familiar to you would be good enough, if there are sufficient controls to guard against cheating (intentional or otherwise--for instance, simple sleepwalking!). A videocamera, for instance, would be enough for a preliminary test (to test yourself, I mean; JREF encourages applicants to test themselves first, with appropriate controls in place, to save the applicant from potential embarrassment.). You could even re-use the same tape each night until a night you felt you had a successful OOBE; then check the tape to see that you had not simply sleepwalked, and have the independent party check your "seen" numbers against the actual ones. (I have oversimplified a bit here, due to time constraints, but it is a fairly simple procedure to check yourself.)
Click to expand...

Yes, that's perfectly reasonable but something like that has already been done by a few people. The problem is that you have to take their word for it also. As for me doing it, it wouldn't prove anything to me but it might be fun to try. Here's something else fascinating, if you have a book nearby you can experience it in many more ways than by simply reading it.

As for sleepwalking, I don't sleepwalk. How would I know? I lock my door when I sleep and I live in a crowded house.
 
Expression_man said:
Ah, right then. I thought you were insinuating something else.
Click to expand...

Now that I got your attention:

If you think that there is ample evidence of Out Of Body Experiences, open a thread and let's examine the evidence.

Do you think that what Randi is doing is not important to mankind's mental evolution? He wants science to progress, to stop charlatans from cheating people, to end superstition. How is superstition important to mankind's mental evolution?

Why is it a problem that people have to go through proper channels to take the JREF Challenge?

Why should Derek Ogilvie be treated preferentially?

What do you think of Project Alpha, where scientists - according to you, much better equipped to detect fraud than people like Randi - were fooled, good and proper, by mere amateurs?
 
Expression_man said:
Yes, that's perfectly reasonable but something like that has already been done by a few people. The problem is that you have to take their word for it also. As for me doing it, it wouldn't prove anything to me but it might be fun to try. Here's something else fascinating, if you have a book nearby you can experience it in many more ways than by simply reading it.
Click to expand...
Oh, I did not intend this as anything more than one way of testing your own beliefs. And yes, it really should be fun; either way it goes down, you learn something. And "reading a number" was chosen just for convenience; there is no reason one would have to use that measure. If your primary experience during these OOBE's was olfactory, one's independent person might put a spice (or crayons, or cheese, or whatever--so long as you did not know which one it was, although it would not be a problem to have you pick the items which could be used). If your primary experience is touch, then rough, smooth, hot or cold stimuli could be used. Whatever your experience is, it can be tested.

And yes, this sort of thing has been done. In one case (the researcher escapes me at the moment), a remarkable report of a string of numbers was given. Sadly, that case did not have controls to prevent the subject from peeking (as you say, we would have to take her word for it), and she left the experiment without replicating the experience with proper controls in place.

"Taking your word for it" is not a problem, though, when you are just doing this for yourself, for fun. You would only be lying to yourself, and there is no point to that. If you found success, then and only then would I advise you to take the next step of having an independent researcher join in the observation. Eventually, if it is real, there is no reason at all why you could not demonstrate that it is.

But, as BillyJoe pointed out above, at present there are two explanations that fit your observations. You would have to do some of that fun systematic observation before you could legitimately say that yours is the better explanation. Blanke's published work supports the other explanation at present, but it is still early. Evidence. That's what is needed.
 
Now that I got your attention:

If you think that there is ample evidence of Out Of Body Experiences, open a thread and let's examine the evidence.

Do you think that what Randi is doing is not important to mankind's mental evolution? He wants science to progress, to stop charlatans from cheating people, to end superstition. How is superstition important to mankind's mental evolution?

Why is it a problem that people have to go through proper channels to take the JREF Challenge?

Why should Derek Ogilvie be treated preferentially?

What do you think of Project Alpha, where scientists - according to you, much better equipped to detect fraud than people like Randi - were fooled, good and proper, by mere amateurs?
Click to expand...

The only thing of any importance there is bringing this to peoples attention. To tell you the truth, I'm actually scared of Randi. That's why I sometimes attack him. I don't believe in him and ignorance scares the **** out of me.

I don't want a confrontation (despite my nature) or a thread. My being here is part of a reaction I had to Randi. I am not in a position to persuade people. All the same, it's a learning experience. No thread please. I don't want anymore focus. I'll stop talking about it altogether.
 
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Expression_man said:
The only thing of any importance there is bringing this to peoples attention. To tell you the truth, I'm actually scared of Randi. That's why I sometimes attack him. I don't believe in him and ignorance scares the **** out of me.

I don't want a confrontation (despite my nature) or a thread. My being here is part of a reaction I had to Randi. I am not in a position to persuade people. All the same, it's a learning experience. No thread please. I don't want anymore focus. I'll stop talking about it altogether.
Click to expand...

That's not going to work here. You claim there is ample evidence of Out Of Body Experiences. You want to bring it to people's attention.

The only way you can do that is by providing the evidence. The claim itself is not enough. Open a thread and present the evidence there. Or do it here, in this thread.

Here's the rest of the questions:

Do you think that what Randi is doing is not important to mankind's mental evolution? He wants science to progress, to stop charlatans from cheating people, to end superstition. How is superstition important to mankind's mental evolution?

Why is it a problem that people have to go through proper channels to take the JREF Challenge?

Why should Derek Ogilvie be treated preferentially?

What do you think of Project Alpha, where scientists - according to you, much better equipped to detect fraud than people like Randi - were fooled, good and proper, by mere amateurs?
 
I already started a thread and am in the middle of an experiment with Jonnyfive. I'm not posting there until I have something to offer with regards to his challenge. I just let myself get carried away here again.

Apologies.
 
Expression_man said:
Obviously the answer is my own experiences, all of which I am not comfortable talking about but I will share one which might best explain it.

Tap the table in front of you. Sensory input. You heard sound, you felt touch.

One of my earlier experiences, wherein I was still having trouble moving about, my point of reference had been skewed. Half of my awareness was in my physical body and my other half was in my projected double. This is a very strange feeling but I couldn't help laughing to myself (in my mind) because it seemed so absurd.

Slowly, my awareness trickled into my projected double and I became less aware of my "sleeping position".

This is where it gets complex...

Sensory information.

Sight : 100% in my projected double but lost within a few seconds and now it's a first person perspective from my position on my bed

Motion/momentum/movement : From my projected double

Touch : Shared between my physical body and my projected double

Smell : Unimportant/can't remember

Taste : Unimportant/can't remember


So, I'm seeing things from my physical body but I'm getting information from my projection. I also lack the ability to navigate my environment properly and I find myself falling, from the perspective (not visual but motion) of my projected double.

I can feel myself falling through my bed and off to the side. I can't see anything but I can feel myself pass through the side table, I take in the sense of touch, it's wooden and I feel the surface as it corners off at the bottom and connects to the floor. I have no sight at this time.

I continue to fall (it's more like floating downwards really) and I'm thinking to myself "ack, where does that mean I am"?

The ceiling is quite thin, it doesn't take long until I am in the room below. I continue to fall and I have no idea of where I might be until I stop falling and I can feel the touch of what I know to be a leg rest.

My position is on my side, as it is in bed. Actually this is interesting. That would mean that my projected double is mimicking my physical body's popition (I rest/sleep on my side).

So this leg rest, which I recognise immediately (the moment I made contact with it) is now stopping me from falling. Hehe, I'm not sure why but I seemed to have stopped falling the moment I made contact with that particular object.

That's one example. Most of mine are usually 100% from the perspective of my projected double. I have also become conscious of my projected double while it has been in another room in the house. One time it was in the bathroom upstairs and I suddenly found myself in the dark (lights off and door closed because the room isn't in use).

These are difficult to describe in words but there's another sense you become privvy too while fully immerse in the double, it's a "knowingness". You know your environment and what is outside of it. You would think that sometimes not having sight would bother me but this other sense is much more preferable I assure you.

I'm sorry that you don't have anything other than only my word to go on. I'm certainly not the only one who experiences this, my brother also has it but to a much lesser extent. There are communities dedicated to it but, as is obvious, the integrity of the accounts is in question.
Click to expand...

What was it about that experience that led you to conclude it was something other than a dream or an hallucination? What specific detail led you to the belief that it could not have been a dream or an hallucination?
 
What was it about that experience that led you to conclude it was something other than a dream or an hallucination? What specific detail led you to the belief that it could not have been a dream or an hallucination?
Click to expand...

For me it was the sensory input I received while passing through the different surfaces.

There was also an experiment I did with someone I met online who asked me to view where it was he lived. I got everything down perfectly with the exception of some furniture which had been removed since. Although I was lucky to get the location and perfect sight on my first attempt.

My grandfather described escaping a Russian prison camp by following a white shadow which I now take to be his projected double.

I'm sorry that I don't have anything else to offer you.
 
Expression_man said:
I already started a thread and am in the middle of an experiment with Jonnyfive. I'm not posting there until I have something to offer with regards to his challenge. I just let myself get carried away here again.

Apologies.
Click to expand...

That's fine. You can still answer the questions in this thread:

Do you think that what Randi is doing is not important to mankind's mental evolution? He wants science to progress, to stop charlatans from cheating people, to end superstition. How is superstition important to mankind's mental evolution?

Why is it a problem that people have to go through proper channels to take the JREF Challenge?

Why should Derek Ogilvie be treated preferentially?

What do you think of Project Alpha, where scientists - according to you, much better equipped to detect fraud than people like Randi - were fooled, good and proper, by mere amateurs?
 
Gr8wight said:
What was it about that experience that led you to conclude it was something other than a dream or an hallucination? What specific detail led you to the belief that it could not have been a dream or an hallucination?
Click to expand...
If I could add to this a bit, E_m, since you mentioned Blanke earlier: Have you read any of his papers? Some are available online (at least to educational institutions), perhaps a local library would have access. I would love to hear how your personal experience stacks up against the experiences Blanke reports.
 
As fate would have it, "Rosemary Altea" also had a name that sounded like a homeopathic remedy...
 
Expression_man said:
Don't be ignorant. If people like Olaf Blanke would stop holding their findings back for fear of being ridiculed you'd see so many more people like me coming forward. The only reason I'm here is because I'm more confrontational than the rest of them. That is the failure of science and and the fear mongering this place is guilty of.
Click to expand...

LOL... You know that neither you nor anyone else needs us, or the JREF, to prove any point you wish to make, don't you?


M.
 
Do you think that what Randi is doing is not important to mankind's mental evolution?
Click to expand...

The notion is righteous, I just doubt his integrity. My problem.

He wants science to progress, to stop charlatans from cheating people, to end superstition. How is superstition important to mankind's mental evolution
Click to expand...

Superstition is probably more damaging than atom bombs. I agree with you there, but I'm sure there's a better way to further ourselves than pressuring people into confronting him.

I've caused enough trouble in this thread, I don't want to engage in conflict anymore. That's why I'm answering the questions which are important.

If I could add to this a bit, E_m, since you mentioned Blanke earlier: Have you read any of his papers? Some are available online (at least to educational institutions), perhaps a local library would have access. I would love to hear how your personal experience stacks up against the experiences Blanke reports.
Click to expand...

I've only managed to get my hands on a few excerpts and public statements. I dislike reading them because he only sees things up close and not the bigger picture.

If you want me to comment on something in particular I'd be glad to.
 
Expression_man said:
We know what Olaf Blanke is talking about when he uses the words "shadowy man", it's what, for years, we've called the "projected double". He's trying to understand things from a medical bias. He wouldn't even publish how people could see beyond their sensory range but only briefly mentioned it on a radio show, that comment never to be taken seriously by anyone ever again.

Even people in the field of psychiatry are doubting his conclusions. He's trying to apply his findings to a limited understanding of the world. Olaf Blanke is doing his best to avoid confronting people with evidence which will make him seem crazy. It makes me angry that because of places like these we are now contending with something that is being considered as taboo.
Click to expand...

That is just absolute rubbish, man. If "Olaf" had any real evidence, wild horses couldn't keep him from publishing. You seem very naive.

M.
 
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