Rosemary Altea

[Expression_man]

That is just absolute rubbish, man. If "Olaf" had any real evidence, wild horses couldn't keep him from publishing. You seem very naive.

M.

Maybe you're right. I just got angry that you called it "woo".

 

[Gr8wight]

For me it was the sensory input I received while passing through the different surfaces.

What is sensory input? It is simply your brain interpreting electrical signals from your neural system. The dreaming brain is capable if replicating these interpretations without the actual electrical input. Many people have dreams so vivid they involve the tactile and other senses. How can you distinguish between running your hand across a rough surface and dreaming about running your hand across a rough surface?

There was also an experiment I did with someone I met online who asked me to view where it was he lived. I got everything down perfectly with the exception of some furniture which had been removed since. Although I was lucky to get the location and perfect sight on my first attempt.

That's excellent! You already have the kind of experience with astral travel that would allow you to easily pass a test of this phenomenon. A test just like I described in an earlier post on this thread. Why don't you organize one. There have been many good suggestions here about how to do so.

Oh, wait, I know. You will not participate in any test that has the potential to shake your belief in your "special" abilities. You know, deep inside, in some recess of your rational mind that you have deliberately blocked off, that your are simply dreaming these things, so you pontificate and philosophize, but will never take any actual, concrete action under controlled circumstances. You are afraid of just being normal, and like everybody else, so you preserve your delusions that you are special.

My grandfather described escaping a Russian prison camp by following a white shadow which I now take to be his projected double.

Maybe it was simply the prisoner in front of him, occluded by a snowstorm. Or maybe his mind invented it to explain something he couldn't. Or, maybe he enjoyed telling tales, and loved to stretch the truth. Who knows. It's fun to interpret things any way you want. Especially something about which it is impossible for anyone, anywhere to refute.

I'm sorry that I don't have anything else to offer you.

Anything else? You haven't actually offered me anything yet. Stop hiding from the truth. Test yourself honestly.

 

[Moochie]

Maybe you're right. I just got angry that you called it "woo".

I recommend an anger-management program. Works for me.

M.

 

[Expression_man]

That's excellent! You already have the kind of experience with astral travel that would allow you to easily pass a test of this phenomenon. A test just like I described in an earlier post on this thread. Why don't you organize one. There have been many good suggestions here about how to do so.

In progress.

Oh, wait, I know. You will not participate in any test that has the potential to shake your belief in your "special" abilities. You know, deep inside, in some recess of your rational mind that you have deliberately blocked off, that your are simply dreaming these things, so you pontificate and philosophize, but will never take any actual, concrete action under controlled circumstances.

This may even be true, the subconscious does a lot of things. I will certainly do more tests just to be sure.

You are afraid of just being normal, and like everybody else, so you preserve your delusions that you are special.

100% wrong. Anyone can do this and I encourage you all to try. Even if you are just mindful that such a thing exists you have a head start on everyone else.

 

[BillyJoe]

Em,

I admire your restraint in the face of some of JREF's famous prodders.
Hi Moochie.

The first step seems to be to prove this thing to yourself one way or another. You mentioned a book. Why not leave a random book on your side table and the next time you have one of these experiences open it up at a random page and read. If your OOB experience is not real, you will actually find it impossible to read a coherent sentence or paragraph. Note the page number and, when you are awake, open it up at that page and see if you have succeeded.

BJ

 

[Expression_man]

Em,

The first step seems to be to prove this thing to yourself one way or another. You mentioned a book. Why not leave a random book on your side table and the next time you have one of these experiences open it up at a random page and read.

I prefer the idea of having someone fill up a mystery box with items I can interact with. Stuff which I might be able to smell, feel and even hear (squeaky toy maybe). That would be really interesting for me.

If your OOB experience is not real, you will actually find it impossible to read a coherent sentence or paragraph. Note the page number and, when you are awake, open it up at that page and see if you have succeeded.

No, this isn't exactly true. There are so many different ways to interact with objects that, simply by focussing on them visually, it's possible to induce something crazy. That is to say you might not have the "limited interaction" you expect*. If it were in a locked room and already open with the lights turned off, I might be able to find some way of reading it.

In the experiment I'm doing with Jonnyfive I'm having unforseen difficulties. I managed to project somewhere with him in mind but I didn't have full sight. I had to feel my way around so to speak. I had no way of determining what the bigger picture was. As a result of that I loaded up 3d studio max and started modelling things based off what I could feel while trying to place them in some sort of context. It makes for a very confusing picture. Fortunately I'm being given a lot of time to get it right so I don't have to make guesses.

*Some people experience 360 degree vision, this has only happened to me once and I couldn't understand it. I heard the most god-awful screeching noise and started seeing everything distort after which I snapped back to my physical body. That is to say that sometimes, the moment you try to take over from your subconscious (by putting a conscious effort on directing your sight [or no longer taking it for granted]) everything goes to ****.

So, there's lots to take into account. Experimenting should be kept simple I think.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The world's first ever conference dedicated to near death experiences was held in June last year (2006). It was attended by doctors, researchers and patients who have been silent for far too long on this subject.

Comments included as part of it...







And you people have the balls to call these guys "woos".

I have experienced this for myself. I have induced it multiple times since. I have been above my body, I have been awake and seen my projected double. I have seen my physical body from the perspective of my projected double. I have explored environments using my projected double. I don't care what reasons you come up with to doubt it when you haven't experienced it. I don't care what variables you introduce to cast doubt on it. Page through the hundreds of thousands of reported incidents and disprove every one of them as being figments of the imagination if you want.

I don't need proof, you need it. I can't give it to you I am sorry. I am attempting to do what I can for you people in another thread.

And there are people who are absolutely certain they are Jesus Christ. They "don't need proof" either. But the rest of us (or me anyway) would like to see a miracle or two. Is that so unreasonable a request?

 

[Expression_man]

They "don't need proof" either. But the rest of us (or me anyway) would like to see a miracle or two.

The only thing miraculous about it, as far as many are concerned, is being able to sit there and pretend it's not happening.

Is that so unreasonable a request

When you exhibit less than a casual interest, yes.

 

[Mercutio]

I prefer the idea of having someone fill up a mystery box with items I can interact with. Stuff which I might be able to smell, feel and even hear (squeaky toy maybe). That would be really interesting for me.

Honestly? That is exactly what you want! Something that you, before the test (self test, in this case) even begins! Why on earth would anyone choose something you find boring?!?

No, this isn't exactly true. There are so many different ways to interact with objects that, simply by focussing on them visually, it's possible to induce something crazy. That is to say you might not have the "limited interaction" you expect*. If it were in a locked room and already open with the lights turned off, I might be able to find some way of reading it.

As long as you have a set of things which you think (think, not know--you are just starting your exploration) you might be able to interact with as shadow-self, there is no reason not to include a number of things. For instance, if you have ten visual things, ten auditory things, ten tactile, ten olfactory, ten gustatory (taste) things, your tester (trusted by you and also hidden from you!) could choose one from each category to include in your target. As long as the probabilities are adjusted to recognise that 5 guesses are different from one guess, this would work just fine.

In the experiment I'm doing with Jonnyfive I'm having unforseen difficulties. I managed to project somewhere with him in mind but I didn't have full sight. I had to feel my way around so to speak. I had no way of determining what the bigger picture was. As a result of that I loaded up 3d studio max and started modelling things based off what I could feel while trying to place them in some sort of context. It makes for a very confusing picture. Fortunately I'm being given a lot of time to get it right so I don't have to make guesses.

This is why it is important to test yourself before subjecting yourself to the challenge. Assuming that you *can* do this, there is no reason to suspect that you know exactly what you can and cannot do; testing yourself systematically will narrow this down so that you can be more specific when applying for the million (if you so choose). If you can't, systematic testing will reveal that too.

*Some people experience 360 degree vision, this has only happened to me once and I couldn't understand it. I heard the most god-awful screeching noise and started seeing everything distort after which I snapped back to my physical body. That is to say that sometimes, the moment you try to take over from your subconscious (by putting a conscious effort on directing your sight [or no longer taking it for granted]) everything goes to ****.

The more you test yourself with complete experimental control, the more you will find one of two things: If the effect is real, it will (or should, if virtually 100% of past experience applies) become much more clear, but if the effect is due to expectancies, artifacts, or bias, it will (or should, if past experience is any indication) diminish. I know I would prefer to see a real effect; I have seen too many false alarms. I know that many here--but certainly not all--agree with that preference.

So, there's lots to take into account. Experimenting should be kept simple I think.

Simple, yes. I agree completely, and think that shows true wisdom. But not overly simple. Experimental controls are absolutely necessary. But, frankly, experimental controls really are quite simple, most of the time. It is not a case of "these controls, as opposed to those controls", but rather "these simple controls, as opposed to no controls whatsoever". And I sincerely trust that you do not wish anyone to believe you based on an uncontrolled experience. If this experience is real, I will be among the first to cheer you on as you demonstrate it in controlled conditions!

 

[thaiboxerken]

And you people have the balls to call these guys "woos"..

I can't speak for anyone else, but those guys ARE woos.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think EM's point is rather simple. Science and evidence isn't all that important. What's important is validating personal beliefs and evidence by consulting other people who have had similar experiences. That way, a person can feel like they aren't looney-tunes, even though they obviously are.

 

[Expression_man]

I think EM's point is rather simple. Science and evidence isn't all that important. What's important is validating personal beliefs and evidence by consulting other people who have had similar experiences. That way, a person can feel like they aren't looney-tunes, even though they obviously are.

You can speak to me directly, I'm right here. Why the third person reference?

 

[Burner]

For me it was the sensory input I received while passing through the different surfaces.

There was also an experiment I did with someone I met online who asked me to view where it was he lived. I got everything down perfectly with the exception of some furniture which had been removed since. Although I was lucky to get the location and perfect sight on my first attempt.

My grandfather described escaping a Russian prison camp by following a white shadow which I now take to be his projected double.

I'm sorry that I don't have anything else to offer you.

Hello e_man, I've been lukring on this thread for a while and I had to respond to this one. First let me tell you that sensory experiences you describe prove absolutely nothing. I've experieced dreams, and what you'd call lucid dreaming in which I could see, touch, taste and smell things with outmost realism, as a matter of fact these weren't any differnet from the real thing, if anything they were more real. And there is a perfectly reasonable scientific explanation for this. It is well known that the human brain records pretty much everything that five senses encounter. Granted, this information can not be accessed in a conscious state, but in certain conditions, such as lucid dreaming the brain can easily recall this information in outmost detail. Does this prove the existance of the alternate energetic body? Of course not.

Also the OOBs you describe can be explained similarly. I have personaly experienced this, having seen my body from ceiling perspective, walking around my body,falling trough my boudy, walking around my house, and other places, even reading labels on things to test myself. All of this, can be explained by non-paranormal means. The brain remembers many things, most of which we're not even aware of. Such as places you only passed by while driving in your car, but in a certain brain state you can walk trough these places and explore them in detail. Still, this doens't prove that you were actually outside your body at that time.
Don't get me wrong, I don't disprove it's existence, I just feel there isn't enough evidence that OOBs involve an energetic alternative body. You have been asked multiple times on this thread to present eveidence of it's existance. Why have you not done so?

One other thing, you claim to have experienced these states many times, but you can't do it with a degree of certainty that would allow testing. I see there are couple of test procedures being suggested already. Why don't you have a friend put a couple of things in a box somewhere in your house. Next time you have an OOB just walk there and see what these things are. Don't forget to lock the bedroom door tho.

 

[Expression_man]

Hello e_man, I've been lukring on this thread for a while and I had to respond to this one. First let me tell you that sensory experiences you describe prove absolutely nothing. I've experieced dreams, and what you'd call lucid dreaming in which I could see, touch, taste and smell things with outmost realism, as a matter of fact these weren't any differnet from the real thing, if anything they were more real. And there is a perfectly reasonable scientific explanation for this. It is well known that the human brain records pretty much everything that five senses encounter. Granted, this information can not be accessed in a conscious state, but in certain conditions, such as lucid dreaming the brain can easily recall this information in outmost detail. Does this prove the existance of the alternate energetic body? Of course not.

Also the OOBs you describe can be explained similarly. I have personaly experienced this, having seen my body from ceiling perspective, walking around my body,falling trough my boudy, walking around my house, and other places, even reading labels on things to test myself. All of this, can be explained by non-paranormal means. The brain remembers many things, most of which we're not even aware of. Such as places you only passed by while driving in your car, but in a certain brain state you can walk trough these places and explore them in detail. Still, this doens't prove that you were actually outside your body at that time.
Don't get me wrong, I don't disprove it's existence, I just feel there isn't enough evidence that OOBs involve an energetic alternative body. You have been asked multiple times on this thread to present eveidence of it's existance. Why have you not done so?

One other thing, you claim to have experienced these states many times, but you can't do it with a degree of certainty that would allow testing. I see there are couple of test procedures being suggested already. Why don't you have a friend put a couple of things in a box somewhere in your house. Next time you have an OOB just walk there and see what these things are. Don't forget to lock the bedroom door tho.

Slightly redundant, of course I'm self-testing. I'm not going to lie about anything I've experienced. The fact of the matter is that the people I'm learning from have had far more incredible "validation experiences" than I have.

What you say is true though, yes! I've been able to call up memories, while in deep trance, with perfect recall. The subconscious is not to be sniffed at, I know!

I've even had lucid dreams wherein I imagine it's an out of body experience. They quickly fail when I attempt to explore an area I haven't been. One such example being when I found myself in my room and decided to look beyond my curtains, there was only a black void. I'd normally see traffic (something dynamic) but it was not there in the lucid dream. Sometimes while in a lucid dream my subconscious will even try to put a placeholder there but it's so out of place it just gives everything away immediately.

 

[Burner]

So if you tried opening the curtains in an OOB you'd see everything as it was actually happening? This is different from what I've read on OOBs. I read that while experiencing an OOB you're actually walking trought a so called 'astral realm' which is somewhat similar to reality, but is really composed of 'stored memories' of places rather than real-time situation.

Btw, why don't you get one of those people who had many OOBs and can induce them at will apply for the JREF prize? Should be fairly easy if they've already self-tested and verified their abilities.

 

[BillyJoe]

Em,

I mentioned the book because it is something you can do yourself without any outside help. It is possible that the outside help may try to help you more than you intend, if you know what I mean.

So what about one of those child books that have a different texture on every page - satin, fluffy, corrugations, bristly, polished etc. There are usually only a dozen pages. Place a bookmark on top of the book but do not open the book until you have an OOB experience. When you do, open the book at a random page and feel the texture. Place a bookmark and close the book. When you are awake write down what you felt and then open the book at the bookmark. If the bookmark is still on top of the book, you have failed. If it's in the book either you succeeded, or someone is fooling with you. Open the book to see if you have succeeded.

 

[Burner]

Em,

I mentioned the book because it is something you can do yourself without any outside help. It is possible that the outside help may try to help you more than you intend, if you know what I mean.

So what about one of those child books that have a different texture on every page - satin, fluffy, corrugations, bristly, polished etc. There are usually only a dozen pages. Place a bookmark on top of the book but do not open the book until you have an OOB experience. When you do, open the book at a random page and feel the texture. Place a bookmark and close the book. When you are awake write down what you felt and then open the book at the bookmark. If the bookmark is still on top of the book, you have failed. If it's in the book either you succeeded, or someone is fooling with you. Open the book to see if you have succeeded.

While he's at it, why not just go to Washington D.C. and whack GW up the head?

 

[Expression_man]

So if you tried opening the curtains in an OOB you'd see everything as it was actually happening? This is different from what I've read on OOBs. I read that while experiencing an OOB you're actually walking trought a so called 'astral realm' which is somewhat similar to reality, but is really composed of 'stored memories' of places rather than real-time situation.

Thank you for asking. There are so many variables involved with this that it's almost impossible to explain with words.

We have different "levels of focus" and depending on which focus you are at (I'm not talking about Monroe's phasing model) you have access to different "realms".

The only thing of any consequence here is lowest "realm" which is the RTZ, or "real time zone". It's all objective information but is presented differently to how you might expect. Even the RTZ itself has different sub-levels to it (from my own experience). The lowest of these levels is an objective representation of what we perceive while awake. This is the easiest place to get to, usually. As you "move up", things start becoming interconnected and you get a blend of past, present and "potential future". The more questions you ask while in these states, the more you tend to experience. The RTZ is the only place where sensory information tends to get skewed (for me). In other places/realms of consciousness there is no "body" (not what you would recognise as being a standard body anyway) and they work very differently (it's the best feeling you will ever experience). At the lowest level it's actually possible to interact with someone who is awake (but in a very limited manner).

Btw, why don't you get one of those people who had many more OOBs and can induce them at will apply for the JREF prize? Should be fairly easy if they've already self-tested and verified their abilities many times.

Because I don't know anyone who can snap their fingers and go for it. If you're talking about the mystery box then it gets complicated. You need a very high level of control. You need to maintain a specific state for a certain period of time without losing your point of reference. We're all still experimenting, there are no "masters" that we know of.

Here comes some bias.

We tend to believe that life is unlimited. When you pop into a higher state of being it's not easy to limit yourself to the point that you're just short of being back in the physical body. While you start off in that state (why I said it's the easiest to get to), it's not easy to maintain it for long periods of time.

That is effectively what I'm trying to do here. I'm aware of what it sounds like.

Edit: Regarding what you were saying with "a place of stored memories", I think I know what you are referring to. This concept is even more complex though. You will have probably already read how the waking consciousness stores memories as emotions in the subconscious. My way of understanding this, from my experiences, is that this isn't really a memory you are storing but a journal of focus. You reference these points of interest/focus and recall the emotion which, once it reaches your conscious state, you then become familiar with (input/output recollection). I could go further with this but it's already too esoteric.

 

[alfaniner]

Be sure to check out the importance of double-blinding, and replication of testing (more than one data point). Neither you nor anyone immediately involved should know the object of your search. I.E. you'd probably need a third party.

 

[Burner]

What you wrote doens't sound as crazy as some other claims you see here, it even makes some kind of intuitive sense. However, the only way to really know for sure this is an OOB and not just a different mental process would require real-life verification. Perhaps trough mental training / meditation you could develop more mental discipline to allow you to control your state better. Anyway, I hope you find a suitable protocol to test your abilities. If not for benfit of mankind than for million other reasons.