Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Would topless be all right with you? How 'bout just a jock strap?
Originally posted by Skeptic
No. Did anybody wear those to pass the coffin? Out of 100,000+ who lined up? No. So, you see, people DO know there's a difference.
Thanks for joining my discussion with
Jocko.
Now then, did I
say that anyone wore a jockstrap or went topless when they passed the casket? Nope. I was asking a rhetorical question related to what one might consider appropriate styles of dress for various occasions.
I maintain that standards of decorum in thought, word, and deed help to elevate us above our baser, animalistic tendencies. They are building blocks towards greater civilization. One of those deeds is the adoption of certain modes of dress for any given situation. Now, I cannot think of a more exteme example of a situation where one would hope to be at one's best than a funeral ceremony, never mind one for a head of state. So I'm curious why this rather self-evident point was seemingly lost on so many. And it's not as if anyone were being shamed by society into leaving $1000 in a collection plate or taking off work for the entire Reagan-filled week. We're talking about putting on a jacket and tie (or having one ready to wear upon entrance to the rotunda) or, for a women, a dress or suit, all for just a few hours. All I've heard (aside from the attempts to make this a discussion about love or hate for Reagan) is the excuse that it was too hot, so people should be given a break. So...why not topless then? Why not a jock strap? Afterall, it was 92 degrees, right? Afterall, a person should be comfortable, right?
Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Your standards for a state affair seem more casual than mine. What of a person whose standards are even more relaxed? Do you not see the issue?
A coffin lying in state for the public to pass is more similar to the royal carriage passing by for the public to watch than to the funeral itself. You'd expect those who lined up to watch the carriage to not come naked or with a jock strap, but you don't expect them to wear suit and ties in 92 degree weather.
An outdoor celebration allows for different standards of dress and behavior than a solemn indoor ceremony. People will cheer and applaud as the royal carriage of your illustration passes along. Does that make it acceptable behavior to cheer and applaud while inside the capital rotunda alongside a head of state's casket?
Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
I'm certain that all of the Reagan family were gratified and humbled by the outpouring of grief and well-wishes. But it's beside the point. It's not about Ronald Reagan. It's about consideration and propriety, dignity and respect. It's about civilized behavior.
And I'm claiming it was civilized.
Well, there are levels of civilized behavior. Your assessment, given this situation, is apparently more liberal than mine.
What was NOT civilized, however, was dumping on Reagen and calling him (and his family) names as his body was still warm. That was a far greater insult to civility than wearing a T-shirt as you passed the coffin when it was lying in state. Yet those who gleefully perpetrated the former wag a finger at those who "dared" to do the latter.
Yet, again, you want ours to be a discussion about politics. If it helps, remove Ronald Reagan from the equation entirely.
Imagine a wake for a young man, killed by a hit and run driver. In attendance are a heartbreaking number of mourners, no small number of them dressed in a subdued and conservative manner. Quite a few others, however, are there sporting bare midriffs and miniskirts. Many of their friends apparently weren't able to locate a tie. All of those attendees actually look pretty terrific...for a night of clubbing. But a wake?
I witnessed the above scenario myself a couple of years ago. And I found it amusing. Not because someone appointed me lord o' fashion. Frankly, the young adults I mentioned (their age an indicator of their friendship with the deceased) simply may not have been instructed and therefore may not have understood the concept of what is or isn't appropriate for such a situation. No, I wondered at the parents who let the kids show up to such an event, looking hot, and ready to party. Were it a New Orleans-style gathering, you'd expect just such a fun time;
there it would be appropriate. But it wasn't. It was a traditionally solemn, quiet time for reflection, prayer and rememberance. In any event, I give those kids (late teens to college-age, BTW) credit. At least they looked presentable. There wasn't a T-shirt of pair of shorts in the bunch.
What this shows, I think, is that the real point of Shemp's and Subgenius' "shock" is, in reality, something like "A T-shirt for a funeral??? Well, what did you expect from someone stupid enough to like Reagen!". It has nothing to do with respect for Reagen or his family (they obviously have none, as their posts about him show.) It has everything to do with self-important feeling of superiority over "the masses".
I can't speak for either of those two forum members. What I can assert is that I would question anyone's thinking given this or any similar situation. There were no doubt liberals in line to see the president's casket dressed in attire just fine for a day at the mall or scrubbing the kitchen floor. They would be (or are, frankly) fair game for this discussion.
Also, your contention that it "has everything to do with self-important [sic] superiority over 'the masses'" is an attempt to shift the focus away from the central issue. Or are you telling us you would hold no feelings of contempt for someone standing in line to view the casket of a deceased president in the capital rotunda while wearing peek-a-boo panties and pasties?
Wearing a T-shirt at the coffin, like liking Reagen, or eating at McDonalds, is one of those plebian things superior, intelligent people like Shemp and Subgenious just don't do, you see.
I have no idea, you see.
As an aside, do you feel you honor the late president? If so, why do you continue to spell his family name incorrectly?
