Romney's Palestine gaffe today

[theprestige]

If it were true that Hamas = Teh Palestinionz then maybe Romney's crass generalization might have a ring of truth to it. But it isn't and it doesn't.

Hamas is a prominent and influential Palestinian organization, notable for exactly the sentiments Romney attributes. But nothing Romney says can possibly be true, so clearly that's not what he meant.

 

[angrysoba]

Hamas is a prominent and influential Palestinian organization, notable for exactly the sentiments Romney attributes. But nothing Romney says can possibly be true, so clearly that's not what he meant.

They are prominent, yes. But if I attributed everything Romney and the Republicans said to all Americans then some people would think it was a bit of a gross generalization.

"Americans believe the world is seven days old." Is that a true statement? It's true of some but I think you would prefer an important qualification.

I could also say that Likud are a prominent and influential Israeli organization that also demands that the West Bank be part of Israel proper. If this is the case then the solution tends to be what some may favour here and yet not say too loudly. That is, the eventual ejection of Palestinians from the West Bank, and why not, after all we know that they don't want peace, are potential terrorists and don't exist anyway.

 

[theprestige]

They are prominent, yes. But if I attributed everything Romney and the Republicans said to all Americans then some people would think it was a bit of a gross generalization.

"Americans believe the world is seven days old." Is that a true statement? It's true of some but I think you would prefer an important qualification.

I could also say that Likud are a prominent and influential Israeli organization that also demands that the West Bank be part of Israel proper. If this is the case then the solution tends to be what some may favour here and yet not say too loudly. That is, the eventual ejection of Palestinians from the West Bank, and why not, after all we know that they don't want peace, are potential terrorists and don't exist anyway.

When people say "American policy is thus-and-so", they don't mean that it's the agreed-upon policy of every American citizen, and only the most boring of pedants ever bothers to clarify this point.

Hamas is the de facto and the de jure executive of Palestinian authority in the Gaza Strip. Their policies are well known to be congruent with Romney's characterization. Their counterpart in the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority, is known to harbor similar sentiments. But nothing Romney says can possibly be right, so clearly that's not what he meant.

 

[WildCat]

I think you are factually wrong on this point. I doubt if any Palestinians define "peace" that way. That might be what some (relatively few) want, but I doubt that that's how even they define the word "peace".

Have you read the Hamas Charter?

Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
​

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
​

...Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews)​

, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).


That's the group that got the majority of the vote in Gaza, hardly evidence of a "tiny minority" opinion.

But that's really beside the point.

No, that is the point.

What Romney said is factually not true. There are indeed many Palestinians who would like to establish peace. And again, I know 100% for sure that there are even some Palestinians committed to non-violent means to achieve their aims. So Romney is simply wrong.

Nice strawman, but Romney never claimed that not a single Palestinian wanted to establish peace. Would you be similarly confused if you heard someone say "the Americans don't want to ratify the Kyoto treaty" and fly into outrage that not every single American is against the Kyoto treaty?

I think instead the majority of Palestinians desire peace but also justify acts of violence as "defense"--pretty much the same way other people do.

Well yes, but most (trying not to confuse you here by using that word) Palestinians consider all of Israel "occupied territory", and so any and all attacks on Israel are in "defense". This is why every peace attempt with them fails.

But what Romney said was a broad sweeping statement about all Palestinians; and it's false.

Again, where do you come up with this "all Palestinians" nonsense? Is that really how you interpret what he said?

 

[WildCat]

When people say "American policy is thus-and-so", they don't mean that it's the agreed-upon policy of every American citizen, and only the most boring of pedants ever bothers to clarify this point.

I'm astonished that this has to be explained to seemingly intelligent adults.

 

[angrysoba]

When people say "American policy is thus-and-so", they don't mean that it's the agreed-upon policy of every American citizen, and only the most boring of pedants ever bothers to clarify this point.

Hamas is the de facto and the de jure executive of Palestinian authority in the Gaza Strip. Their policies are well known to be congruent with Romney's characterization. Their counterpart in the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority, is known to harbor similar sentiments. But nothing Romney says can possibly be right, so clearly that's not what he meant.

Hamas control the Gaza Strip, yes. Did Romney say that "Gazans" aren't interested in peace? No, he did not. And it is not boring or pedantic to point out that Hamas doesn't speak for all Palestinians. As for the Palestinian Authority, even if we were going to shift the goalposts from something he said to something he did not say, is it true to say that they don't want peace? No, it isn't. They want their own state and are worried that Israeli settlements and occupation will make their own state non-viable.

 

[angrysoba]

I'm astonished that this has to be explained to seemingly intelligent adults.

In other words, Romney didn't mean what he said and only an idiot would think so but what he said was completely true. I wish I could be as astonished as you that you would try such a desperate maneuvre.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm astonished that this has to be explained to seemingly intelligent adults.

There's yer problem, mister.

 

[angrysoba]

There's yer problem, mister.

Well, there's not even a semblance of intelligence from those who think that Hamas represent the Palestinians.

 

[Virus]

Well, there's not even a semblance of intelligence from those who think that Hamas represent the Palestinians.

They voted for them.

Tell me more about the peace parties winning landslide elections in the PA. Tell me more about the large grassroots peace organizations operating out of Gaza. Tell me more about all the TV programs they make about peace. Tell me more about the town squares named after great Palestinian peace diplomats. Tell me more about the school textbooks and curriculum that promote peace.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The problem is that many Palestinians define "peace" as the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of the Jews. Certainly that is the position of Hamas, which has no small level of support among Palestinians.

So you could say they have a desire for peace, but not by the usual definition.

And many Israelis define peace as having all the land god gave them. So we see the nature of the dispute.

 

[mortimer]

Hamas control the Gaza Strip, yes. Did Romney say that "Gazans" aren't interested in peace? No, he did not. And it is not boring or pedantic to point out that Hamas doesn't speak for all Palestinians. As for the Palestinian Authority, even if we were going to shift the goalposts from something he said to something he did not say, is it true to say that they don't want peace? No, it isn't. They want their own state and are worried that Israeli settlements and occupation will make their own state non-viable.

You are correct. Fatah is the ruling party in the West Bank.

Care to look at the Fatah constitution and then say with a straight face that Fatah is interested in peace?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#Constitution

Well sure they're interested in peace. After Israel is destroyed.

 

[WildCat]

In other words, Romney didn't mean what he said and only an idiot would think so but what he said was completely true. I wish I could be as astonished as you that you would try such a desperate maneuvre.

Unbelievable.

 

[WildCat]

Well, there's not even a semblance of intelligence from those who think that Hamas represent the Palestinians.

So how did they get elected in Gaza? Was there voter fraud all the observers missed?

eta: there were Palestinian poitical parties actually advocating peace with Israel (as opposed to peace after Israel is destroyed), unfortunately their vote % is about the same as the Libertarian Party gets in USA presidential elections.

 

[WildCat]

And many Israelis define peace as having all the land god gave them. So we see the nature of the dispute.

A small minority of Israelis. Unfortunately, on the flip side of that we have the overwwhelming majority of Palestinians who think all of Israel "from the river to the sea" belongs to Palestinians.

A small minority can't drive policy, unfortunately a strong majority can, and does, in Palestine.

 

[WildCat]

Well sure they're interested in peace. After Israel is destroyed.

Of course, that's the definition of "peace" - the end of Israel.

Why do you hate peace?

 

[angrysoba]

They voted for them.

Tell me more about the peace parties winning landslide elections in the PA. Tell me more about the large grassroots peace organizations operating out of Gaza. Tell me more about all the TV programs they make about peace. Tell me more about the town squares named after great Palestinian peace diplomats. Tell me more about the school textbooks and curriculum that promote peace.

Well, according to this poll, as reported by Ha'aretz:

Poll: Most Palestinians want peace with Israel
Fafo poll conducted in West Bank and Gaza finds that 89% Palestinians support PA legislative elections this year, 84 % believe Fatah will win.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/poll-most-palestinians-want-peace-with-israel-1.297196

However, it doesn't appear that unconditional peace is favoured:

The majority of Palestinians support a peace agreement with Israel and believe that the Palestinian Authority should use non-violent means to achieve their political goals, a new Fafo poll revealed.

Fafo, a Norwegian based international multidisciplinary research foundation, found that 73 percent of Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza were in favor of peace negotiations with Israel, but stressed that a settlement freeze should be a precondition to talks.

But as you know, there is a problem with the idea of a settlement freeze.

Mortimer seems to anticipate it somewhat...

You are correct. Fatah is the ruling party in the West Bank.

Care to look at the Fatah constitution and then say with a straight face that Fatah is interested in peace?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#Constitution

Well sure they're interested in peace. After Israel is destroyed.

Just as Fatah's constitution seeks a one-state Palestine with Jerusalem as its capital, Likud seeks a one-state Israel in all the land between Jordan and the Med with Jerusalem as its capital. It's a bit of a pickle:

The 1999 Likud charter emphasizes the right of settlement.
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."[14]

Similarly, they claim the Jordan River as the permanent eastern border to Israel and it also claims Jerusalem as belonging to Israel.

"Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city presented to the Knesset by the Arab factions and supported by many members of Labor and Meretz."[15]

The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[14]

With Likud back in power, starting in 2009, Israeli foreign policy is still under review. Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu, in his "National Security" platform, neither endorsed nor ruled out the idea of a Palestinian state.[16] "Netanyahu has hinted that he does not oppose the creation of a Palestinian state, but aides say he must move cautiously because his religious-nationalist coalition partners refuse to give away land."[17]

In June 2009 Netanyahu outlined his conditions for the eventual creation of a Palestinian state, including the state being demilitarized, without an army or control of their airspace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#Charter

Actually, there has been more polling since then on Palestinian attitudes to peace with Israel.

Here's an example:

U.S. President Barack Obama recently announced principles that should be a foundation for any peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. He said the border between Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually-agreed swaps of land to take account of realities on the ground so both sides can achieve a secure and just peace.
Would you favor or oppose a two-state solution with these borders?
Total
Strongly support ............................................................. 5
Somewhat support ......................................................... 52
Somewhat oppose ......................................................... 34
Strongly oppose ............................................................. 5
(Don't know/Refused) ..................................................... 4
Total support ............................................................... 57
Total oppose ................................................................ 40
Support - Oppose ........................................................ 17

http://www.greenbergresearch.com/articles/2653/6708_2011-07_Palestinian_Survey_FQ.PDF

There's a lot of data in there that shows the situation is pretty complex. Some of the results seem contradictory, and their attitude to homosexuality seems no better than that of, say, Mitt Romney.

My summary of this is that most of the Palestinians are against the Israeli settlements and the occupation to the extent that they are happy to see Palestinian militant/terrorist groups kidnapping or killing Israeli soldiers and settlers, but they are also in favour of peace with Israel if Israel stops building settlements. Netanyahu and the Likud Party are not in favour of stopping settlements because their supporters, particularly right-wing settlers are not. It is very gratifying to be told that Palestinians would always reject peace whatever happens if you are a settler or support settlements and that is why Romney says the Palestinians don't want peace.

 

[ponderingturtle]

A small minority of Israelis. Unfortunately, on the flip side of that we have the overwwhelming majority of Palestinians who think all of Israel "from the river to the sea" belongs to Palestinians.

A small minority can't drive policy, unfortunately a strong majority can, and does, in Palestine.

Except that policy from both sides is dictated by these groups. See how you supposed minority gets goverment supports continued expansion.

So screw it, let them fight it out. Maybe in a few hundred years they can sort this out.

 

[Virus]

So screw it, let them fight it out. Maybe in a few hundred years they can sort this out.

If you let them fight it out it would take Israel about 1 second to force them to surrender.

 

[theprestige]

Hamas control the Gaza Strip, yes. Did Romney say that "Gazans" aren't interested in peace? No, he did not. And it is not boring or pedantic to point out that Hamas doesn't speak for all Palestinians. As for the Palestinian Authority, even if we were going to shift the goalposts from something he said to something he did not say, is it true to say that they don't want peace? No, it isn't. They want their own state and are worried that Israeli settlements and occupation will make their own state non-viable.

The question of whether he thinks Palestinian policy means something that all Palestinians agree on is different from the question of whether he's wrong about what the the Palestinian policy actually is. Did you mean to change the subject from the former to the latter? Or are we still talking about the former?

I'll assume we're still talking about the former.

I suppose you're ignoring my point: Were we to talk about the deliberations of the UN Security Council, we might say, "the Americans want tougher sanctions on Syria and Iran, but the Russians and the Chinese are opposed to the idea". And nobody would think twice about it. Only someone who was cognitively impaired, socially incompetent, or cynically arguing in bad faith, would insist that we must have meant, "all the people of those countries hold those respective views".

Everybody would understand that we were referring to the various factions and interest groups that hold positions of leadership and influence in their respective countries.

But nothing Romney says can possibly be right, so clearly that's not what he meant.