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Romney pays 15% tax rate

Rather, it seems that you are, as mentione above, setting at zero all the personal (financial) risk taken in getting to the position where one can earn carried interest.

I can't think of how else you come to your statement that carried interest "involves no personal risk"
 
Please provide evidence-based support for the statement "carried interest involves no personal risk". Please ensure it applies broadly. Be mindful that sleight-of-hand assertion that the risk may not have been borne at the same time as the carried interest is earned, but was nevertheless necessary to earn it, will be dismissed at non-serious posturing.

Thanks.
 
Please provide evidence-based support for the statement "carried interest involves no personal risk". Please ensure it applies broadly. Be mindful that sleight-of-hand assertion that the risk may not have been borne at the same time as the carried interest is earned, but was nevertheless necessary to earn it, will be dismissed at non-serious posturing.

Thanks.
I honestly don't understand your request. Are you claiming that the fund manager risks his time and efforts? Like most contractors I've not been paid on many projects. Contractors take a risk when they accept a contract. Assuming that is your argument, and I'm not certain, should contractors be taxed at the lower rate?

Carried interest or carry, in finance, specifically in alternative investment management, is a share of the profits of a successful investment partnership that is paid to the investment manager of the partnership (a private equity fund or hedge fund) as a form of compensation that is designed as an incentive to the manager to maximize performance of the investment fund. In a hedge fund environment, carried interest is usually referred to as a "performance fee". A manager's carried-interest allocation is in addition to any investment that the manager may have in the private equity fund or hedge fund.
 
The tax rate is not relevant to the matter of the claim that was made being false.
I'm sorry but I've no idea what this means.

Carried interest: United States.

Because the manager is compensated with a profits interest in the fund, the bulk of his or her income from the fund is taxed, not as compensation for services, but as a return on investment. Typically, when a partner receives a profits interest (commonly referred to as a "carried interest"), the partner is not taxed upon receipt, due to the difficulty of ascertaining the present value of an interest in future profits.[8] Instead, the partner is taxed as the partnership earns income. In the case of a hedge fund, this means that the partner defers taxation on the income that the hedge fund earns, which is typically ordinary income (or possibly short-term capital gains), due to the nature of the investments most hedge funds make. Private equity funds, however, typically invest on a longer horizon, with the result that income earned by the funds is long-term capital gain, taxable to individuals at a maximum 15% rate. Because the 20% profits share typically is the bulk of the manager's compensation and because this compensation can reach, in the case of the most successful funds, enormous figures, concern has been raised, both in the U.S. Congress and in the media, that managers are taking advantage of tax loopholes to receive what is effectively a salary without paying the ordinary 35% marginal income tax rates that an average person would have to pay on such income.


To address this concern, U.S. Representative Sander M. Levin introduced H.R. 2834 on June 22, 2007, which would eliminate the ability of persons performing investment-adviser or similar services to partnerships to receive capital-gains tax treatment on their income. [9] On June 27, 2007, Henry Paulson said that altering the tax treatment of a single industry raises tax policy concerns, and that changing the way partnerships in general are taxed is something that should only be done after careful consideration of the potential impact, although he was not speaking only about carried interest.[10] The U.S. Treasury Department addressed carried interest specifically in testimony before the U.S. Senate Finance Committee in July of 2007.[11] U.S. Representative Charles B. Rangel included a revised version of H.R. 2834 as part of the "Mother of All Tax Reform" and the 2007 House extenders package.
Now, that I understand.
 
What you are pasting is, again, not relevant to the statement "carried interest involves no personal risk" (and I understand that to be financial risk) being incorrect.
 
What you are pasting is, again, not relevant to the statement "carried interest involves no personal risk" (and I understand that to be financial risk) being incorrect.
Which prompted my question that you ignored. Should contractors be taxed at a lower tax rate since they carry risk? Doesn't every one carry risk? I went to work for a company and took a lower pay because I believed in the company. They went bankrupt. That was a risk I took, right?

This would be ever so much easier if you would simply answer questions. I'm not trying to win a debate. I'm honestly just trying to understand.
 
Your questions have nothing to do with my posts and are not about a position I have taken in this thread. Perhaps it would be easier if you assume that the ones I do not answer do not interest me at this point. (That is not intended to be a negative comment and I apologise in advance if it sounds that way).
 
What you are pasting is, again, not relevant to the statement "carried interest involves no personal risk" (and I understand that to be financial risk) being incorrect.
BTW: I was for a time a salesperson who worked 100% on commission. That's a pretty hefty risk. Why aren't sales people taxed at 15%?

See, this is the problem, just because there is a "risk" doesn't mean that it's the same as investing one's money. You can argue that time is money but then any contractor or salesperson should then be taxed at 15%. I don't think people will buy that. It seems special pleading for carried interest. Unless you have a reason why it's different but we can't seem to get to the point that we can have that discussion.
 
BTW: I was for a time a salesperson who worked 100% on commission. That's a pretty hefty risk. Why aren't sales people taxed at 15%?

See, this is the problem, just because there is a "risk" doesn't mean that it's the same as investing one's money. You can argue that time is money but then any contractor or salesperson should then be taxed at 15%. I don't think people will buy that. It seems special pleading for carried interest. Unless you have a reason why it's different but we can't seem to get to the point that we can have that discussion.
Anyone else?
 
I have not argued that "time is money". I have argued (and explained) that a partner of a limited partnership who earns carried interest has (as far as I know) invariably put up and risked significant personal capital, that is/was necessary to generate the carried interest stream, and often still is doing when they earn it.

[Edited to add a clause]
 
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Rather, it seems that you are, as mentione above, setting at zero all the personal (financial) risk taken in getting to the position where one can earn carried interest.

I know of no fund managers who don't spend money going to college, which one could call a financial risk since they may not make enough money in their lifetime to overcome the cost. But I wouldn't include that as a financial risk directly associated with carried interest. Like I said, you're parsing words.

What you are pasting is, again, not relevant to the statement "carried interest involves no personal risk" (and I understand that to be financial risk) being incorrect.

Yes, I meant financial risk of investment capital. And I meant financial risk of investment capital directly associated with the carried interest income in question, not financial risk associated with becoming a fund manager or building an investment firm or setting up a fund. I thought it was fairly clear in the context of the argument that I was responding to, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Or maybe you're parsing words.

-Bri
 
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I have not argued that "time is money". I have argued (and explained) that a partner of a limited partnership who earns carried interest has (as far as I know) invariably put up and risked significant personal capital, that is/was necessary to generate the carried interest stream, and often still is doing when they earn it.

[Edited to add a clause]

I think you are assuming something about "my position" which does not come from me.
So, I assume by your response then that you agree that carried interest for fund managers does not constitute risk even though like commissioned sales people they risk not getting paid for their labor.

If so, please tell us why you are not special pleading? The carried interest is on top of the personal investment of money. IOW: It serves the exact same purpose and involves the exact same mechanism as it does for the manager.

And how is one's time not equal to money?
 
Okay, so you agree it won't drop to zero. We are on the same page. How much will it drop to? What is our basis for deciding rates? It's a legitimate question that I can't get an answer to. An honest "I don't know" would have ended this from the start.
It will be less than with a 15% rate, all other things being equal.
 
It will be less than with a 15% rate, all other things being equal.
I've no idea what that means. Assuming for the moment that you are talking about an ideal rate, based on what theory? And the other questions?
 
BTW: I was for a time a salesperson who worked 100% on commission. That's a pretty hefty risk. Why aren't sales people taxed at 15%?

See, this is the problem, just because there is a "risk" doesn't mean that it's the same as investing one's money. You can argue that time is money but then any contractor or salesperson should then be taxed at 15%. I don't think people will buy that. It seems special pleading for carried interest. Unless you have a reason why it's different but we can't seem to get to the point that we can have that discussion.
If you make no sales you are in the same financial position you started off in. If you invest $100,000 in a new business, and it fails, bye-bye to your $100,000. Maybe you get a few hundred back in the liquidation sale.
 

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