Romney and Religion in the Public Square

[Glen.Nogami]

So I decided to look up Romney's speech on faith, supposedly intended to smooth the feathers of Evangelicals that don't appreciate a candidate who doesn't believe their particular brand of nonsense. Link to transcript here.

Anyway, I couldn't help but notice that he seemed to be attempting to rephrase the debate in terms of "Religious vs Secular" instead of "Christian vs Mormon." There were some interesting, and rather disturbing quotes that I found, and I wanted to get you folks' opinion.

"We should acknowledge the Creator as did the Founders - in ceremony and word. He should remain on our currency, in our pledge, in the teaching of our history, and during the holiday season, nativity scenes and menorahs should be welcome in our public places. Our greatness would not long endure without judges who respect the foundation of faith upon which our constitution rests. I will take care to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not separate us from 'the God who gave us liberty.'

What the devil is God's place in the teaching of our history? All the others appear to be targeted at a particular aspect of the Encroaching Secularist Boogeyman, but I hadn't heard any debate about the teaching of history. Thoughts?

Any believer in religious freedom, any person who has knelt in prayer to the Almighty, has a friend and ally in me. And so it is for hundreds of millions of our countrymen: We do not insist on a single strain of religion — rather, we welcome our nation's symphony of faith.

Well, um, OK. What about those of us who choose not to kneel? Typical religious-political rhetoric, I'm sure, but still kinda offensive.

Finally,

In that spirit, let us give thanks to the divine author of liberty. And together, let us pray that this land may always be blessed with freedom's holy light.

Oh, spare me.

 

[Kopji]

Well he's had a long time to work on that. He sounds very 'presidential', surely one of the important metrics at this point in the game. At least he did not go 'woo hoo!!' at the end.

Something very deeply ingrained in all aspects of Mormonism is a sense of unjust persecution. His speech has harnessed that sentiment, increasing the scope of persecution to include all faiths except (clearly) the evil secular threat of 'no faith'. It will be curious when they wake up to the fact that secularists represent millions of potential votes he is writing off. Whatever else I might think, the inclusion of even a slightly gnawed soup bone to unbelievers could go a long way. This is an opportunity missed.

He thinks too narrowly of the people he will be representing as president. While I suspect he would make a fine president, I am personally sick and tired of the direction American politics has taken and I will be looking for more broad minded and inclusive candidates in 2008.

 

[DOC]

What the devil is God's place in the teaching of our history?

Thomas Jefferson said in the Declaration of Independence that we are endowed by our "Creator" with inalienable rights -- Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Now he must have meant God when he said Creator because the "Primordial Soup" that a lot of atheistic scientists believe we came from, does not endow people with the inalienable rights of Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Also our national motto is "In God We Trust"

 

[kmortis]

Thomas Jefferson said in the Declaration of Independence that we are endowed by our "Creator" with unalienable rights -- Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Now he must have meant God when he said Creator because the "Primordial Soup" that a lot of atheistic scientists believe we came from, does not endow people with the inalienable rights of Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Also our national motto is "In God We Trust"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

GIGGLE!!!!

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHahahahahaahha

ha-ha?

You were SERIOUS?

Aw, crap, I knew we shouldn't have zero-funded the institutions.

 

[Senex]

Isn't it nice to have it thrown in your face that not believing makes you lower than the craziest Christian sect?

When I lived in Atlanta I met some Mormons. Mormons are usually nice people. There is not a single presidential candidate who won't invoke god. I suspect closet atheists run for president.

What Romney said angered me but he didn't say anything any of the other candidates would have said if questioned about god. You can't run for president if you don't believe in god.

I believe the god lunacy will run its course. Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence while owning slaves. Our time will come.

 

[DOC]

I believe the god lunacy will run its course. Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence while owning slaves. Our time will come.

I'm of the opinion that your time already came. It was called the Soviet Union. They had the godless society you desire.

And slavery was part of the ingrained culture of the time. That's why George Washington inherited many slaves at age 10 and Jefferson inherited many slaves at age 14.

 

[Tricky]

I'm of the opinion that your time already came. It was called the Soviet Union. They had the godless society you desire.

And slavery was part of the ingrained culture of the time. That's why George Washington inherited many slaves at age 10 and Jefferson inherited many slaves at age 14.

Yes, thank goodness we are moving forward to a time when religion controlls all aspects of national government, like our role model, Iran.

 

[Senex]

I'm of the opinion that your time already came. It was called the Soviet Union. They had the godless society you desire.

Since you didn't add the winky face at the end of your post I will take what you wrote at face value. Believe me, I'm no fan of the Soviet Union.

And slavery was part of the ingrained culture of the time. That's why George Washington inherited many slaves at age 10 and Jefferson inherited many slaves at age 14.

But you must agree that slavery was wrong and as life moves forward we agree that certain things (like slavery) were wrong and we become better people. I believe that much evil in the world is done in the name of religion. I look forward to the day that we won't fight each other over religion.

 

[Slimething]

Doc seeminly doesn't know there's a difference in an imposed vs an elective value. I wonder how he functions in everyday life.

 

[Buckaroo]

I'm of the opinion that your time already came. It was called the Soviet Union. They had the godless society you desire.

You REALLY ought to do some reading on logical fallacies.

 

[headscratcher4]

DOC's hoping his time will come. It will look like Iran -- with crosses...or maybe 15th Century Spain, or Calvin's Geneva or Jonestown....

 

[Tricky]

DOC's hoping his time will come. It will look like Iran -- with crosses...or maybe 15th Century Spain, or Calvin's Geneva or Jonestown....

...or China.

 

[Tricky]

My letter to the Houston Chronicle. I wonder if they will print it.
***
It was interesting to read Mitt Romney's speech in the Chronicle on Friday. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/5357428.html
He makes a spirited defense of how his Mormonism should not disqualify him from the presidency and he speaks about how "It's important to recognize that while differences in theology exist between the churches in America, we share a common creed of moral convictions." While this sounds logical on the surface, in actuality it is palpable nonsense. The various religions have vast differences in moral convictions, as any quick scan of holy books will tell you. While it is true that people can, for good or evil, fit their own moral beliefs into a religious framework, this completely masks the horrible slander that Romney makes against good people with no religion or as he oxymoronically calls it "the religion of secularism". (Is this like "the hobby of not collecting stamps"?) He implies that morality comes from some church, thus, those who have no religion are immoral. Nothing could be further from the truth. Atheists and agnostics are a significant, if relatively quiet segement of our democracy, but they are no less committed to America, to freedom, justice and, yes, morality, than those who adhere to a faith. Secular people do not wish to see religion removed from the public. They wish to see religion removed from government because, as Romney vividly illustrates, it seems impossible for him or Huckabee to respect secularism.
When I see Romney speak out for the right to be treated fairly even if you have no faith, then I'll believe that he is truly committed to religious freedom As it is, it seems he is mostly committed to saying whatever it takes to win the Republican nomination.

 

[joobz]

Nice letter. Let us know if it goes in.

My letter to the Houston Chronicle. I wonder if they will print it.
***
It was interesting to read Mitt Romney's speech in the Chronicle on Friday. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/5357428.html
He makes a spirited defense of how his Mormonism should not disqualify him from the presidency and he speaks about how "It's important to recognize that while differences in theology exist between the churches in America, we share a common creed of moral convictions." While this sounds logical on the surface, in actuality it is palpable nonsense. The various religions have vast differences in moral convictions, as any quick scan of holy books will tell you. While it is true that people can, for good or evil, fit their own moral beliefs into a religious framework, this completely masks the horrible slander that Romney makes against good people with no religion or as he oxymoronically calls it "the religion of secularism". (Is this like "the hobby of not collecting stamps"?) He implies that morality comes from some church, thus, those who have no religion are immoral. Nothing could be further from the truth. Atheists and agnostics are a significant, if relatively quiet segement of our democracy, but they are no less committed to America, to freedom, justice and, yes, morality, than those who adhere to a faith. Secular people do not wish to see religion removed from the public. They wish to see religion removed from government because, as Romney vividly illustrates, it seems impossible for him or Huckabee to respect secularism.
When I see Romney speak out for the right to be treated fairly even if you have no faith, then I'll believe that he is truly committed to religious freedom As it is, it seems he is mostly committed to saying whatever it takes to win the Republican nomination.

the amusing part to me is that Mitt is saying that he holds a Muslim, Jew, Christian, Pagan, scientologist, Raelian, Satanism, Heaven's Gate, Norse Pantheon all equivilent morally and morally superior to any secular moral code.

Does he really mean to say that this?

 

[Senex]

My letter to the Houston Chronicle. I wonder if they will print it.
***

Too many syllables for a Texas newspaper to print.

 

[headscratcher4]

I wonder if those who might follow the Aztek religion would fit in Romeny's moral framework...afterall, they are -- according to Smith -- decendant's of Isreal, if "fallen".

 

[shadron]

Thomas Jefferson said in the Declaration of Independence that we are endowed by our "Creator" with inalienable rights -- Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Now he must have meant God when he said Creator because the "Primordial Soup" that a lot of atheistic scientists believe we came from, does not endow people with the inalienable rights of Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Also our national motto is "In God We Trust"

Thank goodness that our motto, fit only for wearing to a cold war, doesn't come with a jail sentence for non-enjoyment and irrelevant use.

Your ignorance of Jefferson and his environment is abysmal.

 

[Leicontis]

As someone who had to live under this dipwad during his stint as "Governor of Massachusetts", I would probably vote for a brain-dead slug for president over Romney. To many of us, it was obvious even before he was elected that he was planning on using our state as nothing more than a springboard towards the White House. While he was governor, he spent huge amounts of time out-of-state, often badmouthing the state he was supposed to be running. He's been campaigning for the 2008 presidential election since the Salt Lake City Olympics, and the coating of slime he left on everything he touched is one of the big reasons we now have our first Democratic governor since Dukakis - Kerry Healey (his Lt. Gov) didn't stand a chance, being associated with both Mitt and Dubya.

This speech has been and will continue to be compared to JFK's speech about his Christianity. There is no comparison. Kennedy espoused a government free from religious influence, while Romney talks about a government free from secular influence. The real problem is the imbalance I've seen in the religious/secular vote - the strongly religious seem to lean Republican while the secularists (even those who are religious but believe in secular government) seem to fall on the Democratic side. Thus, all Romney has to do is tout his "faith and values" during the primary, drawing the Evangelicals to him, then back away from his anti-secular rhetoric afterwards, in order to try drawing gullible secular fence-sitters to his side.

This guy is unbelievably slimy - he never answers any question directly (watch him on the CBS news segments), turning every tough question into a campaign ad on another topic. He panders to whomever he feels has a good chance of getting elected, and changes position so fast that supporters are voting at a moving target. Mitt Romney belongs on a used-car lot, not in any position of power.

 

[Kochanski]

I'm of the opinion that your time already came. It was called the Soviet Union. They had the godless society you desire.

And slavery was part of the ingrained culture of the time. That's why George Washington inherited many slaves at age 10 and Jefferson inherited many slaves at age 14.

Religion was also ingrained in culture of the time. As for Jefferson he was a Deist as far as I know and that is probably as close to an atheist as you could get to within his era.

Romney just sounds like all the others to me, all hoping for the vote of the religious. This is the one prejudice that is still acceptable within our society, so I bet they all enjoy pandering to it.

 

[Senex]

Well, Leicontis has issues with Romney but he'll vote for him if push comes to shove.