Robertson and Roy-Preliminary Description

Ed,

I just noticed another possible explanation for the research problems, posted by dharlow above.
Posted by dharlow

...this problem. Much of it centers around scientists who may be well-versed in one specific field who then venture into the realm of parapsychology. But this is precisely not what they are trained to do, and while their "positive results" get a lot of attention due to their status, they are not in any way competent in trickery, the history of the field, etc,etc....

So, its not just enough to be a Harvard educated psychologist in order to be a good paranormal investigator, aware of the history and a wide variety of tricks that may be used...
Posted by dharlow

There are, on the other hand, people who I think have done and do good work in the field (most of whom have specilized in it), but who are generally not well known outside of the parapsychology circle. These are the people whose work should be read, and who, I believe at least, are trust-worthy and only in search of truth.

I know you listed some references of past research yesterday, dharlow. Could you mention which current parapsychologists you're thinking of here, the ones who you feel are honest and knowledgeable in looking into this?

And, re: this thread....What's your opinion of the work, so far, of Robertson and Roy?
 
Clancie said:
I agree, though I think most of it is sloppiness, not "knowingly". I'm sorry to say in Schwartz's case that the flaws have been highlighted so often that sloppiness isn't an excuse any more, though. And, re: Schwartz, I felt sadly convinced that he was -knowingly- fraudulent when I read a description of his seminar by a friendly writer (Justine Picardie's "If the Spirit Moves You...")

Brian Josephson also knows how to design and conduct an experiment.

Clancie said:
I don't know, Ed. But I think "clear and unambiguous" should work both ways...and it hasn't, that I can see.

You are free to state your grievance here. Please make it specific, instead of vague.

Clancie said:
Actually, I think for most people that it is. I really doubt that most credible researchers into this are intentionally "stacking the deck"...or else believers would have a lot more, lot more "definitive" results to quote.

The list of fraudulent researchers in the field of paranormal is long.

Clancie said:
I think most professional researchers--even those who might like ADC to be true--are professional enough to go where there research takes them....not to try to "phony it up". I can't prove it, but I'd be surprised if fraud was rampant.

Then you are not very knowledgable about paranormal research.

Clancie said:
One possible conclusion is that there's "nothing" to investigate. Another, of course, is that it is simply extremely difficult to scientifically investigate something as out of our daily realm of experience as ADC would be, if it really exists.

But the impact of these phenomena seems quite detectable, whenever a serious investigation is not going on. Strange, wouldn't you say?

Clancie said:
I'm trying to become more familiar with research into this, past and present, as I realize I know very little about it. I'll let you know if any of the above changes in the process. :)

Weren't you the one chastizing skeptics for not knowing enough?
 
Yes, she was chastizing skeptics for not knowing enough. But, the difference between CF and Clancie is that Clancie ADMITS that she doesn't know everything, and that there is always opportunity to learn more.

Cantata, however, already KNOWS everything there is to know - or so he thinks.

It's the difference between maturity and arrogant immaturity - like Clancie pointed out about certain skeptics.
 
SteveGrenard said:
Are you talking to me? First of all I am not running this experiment. You are getting almost as bad as Larsen. LOL.
Quick recap for you, Steve. You said you agreed with the idea of putting data about fake mediums in the file drawer You've now dug yourself a deeper hole by stating that you're looking for positive results. I didn't say you personally were doing any research. Given the nonsense you continue to spout about science, it would clearly be a less than wise decision to put you in charge of any research beyond washing petri dishes and cuvettes.
But you got it right. If researchers were testing new products that looked promising for cancer or lipid control or AIDS you can be sure they would bury the poor performers until they got one (or more) that clicked for them. You seem to know a lot about science so you should know that unsuccessful results are rarely published. What's the point? We're all looking for a positive result. Robertson and Roy have claimed they have found it in the mediums they ended up testing. I am sure they discarded many just like big pharm discards new MANY drug candidates.
This is utter nonsense. First, you confound searching for things that work with research on an hypothesis. The difference is a matter of visibility. If you have in your lab twenty candidate chemicals and nineteen of them don't work, yes, you don't bother publishing about the losers. Unless you or somebody else has already published about one of them. Then it is incumbent upon you to put forward the findings because the issue is now visible, and the record of science needs to be corrected. If your candidate has progressed into FDA phase I, II or III trials and you fail to publish the negative findings about that investigational new drug (IND), your next likely paper will be on techniques for washing cuvettes.

Second, as for your more general claim that unsuccessful results are rarely published, would you care to retract that now, or shall I begin listing the citations? I await your decision.
 
Clancie said:
I know you listed some references of past research yesterday, dharlow. Could you mention which current parapsychologists you're thinking of here, the ones who you feel are honest and knowledgeable in looking into this?

And, re: this thread....What's your opinion of the work, so far, of Robertson and Roy?

George Hansen is no longer a parapsychologist, though he used to be. He's been extremely helpful in answering my queries, and is very honest about the work done, I believe. I've liked the views expressed by Gerd Hovellmann, and the work done by Robert Morris and J.E. Kennedy is sound as well. From the psychical research side, I think Alan Gauld, D.J. West, Tony Cornell, and Tom Ruffles are good, and I think Richard Wiseman could be good if he weren't so wrapped up with the media. There are others, I'm sure, but I'm not as familiar with the contemporary scene. I should note that many, if not all, of the people listed above are either trained in magic or have knowledge of deceptive practices.

As far as the R and R study, I'll have to read it first. I've mentioned before that I have less interest in mental mediumship and the research on it. I think Mark (Dogwood) did an admirable critique of it in the Skeptic Report. I think it crucial to have the unedited transcripts of all sittings published in some form or the other...or at least made readily available on request.
 
Geez, I go away for a few hours and look what I came back to. Its the last shopping weekend before Sir Isaac's birthday for newton's sake.

Anyway, thanks Ed for telling me it wasn't the selection of the mediums you were interested in but rather the selection of the sitters. This wasn't clear. Anyway Mrs. R. answered me regarding the first question which was that the mediums were selected on the basis of personal reputation. This is interesting because it might tell us something about the meaningfulness of that parameter. I have written her back asking her about the selection of sitters but it is late in the UK now so I may not hear until tomorrow.

On the subject of transcripts, I am not sure what value they would be since there was no give and take insofar as I am aware between medium and sitter.
Sitters were sequestered from mediums, could not be seen or heard and were not allowed to answer.
They rated the medium afterwards as did non-sitters as if the reading was for them. Its like Randi's SB protocol but to a statistically sigificant degree. Not just one medium and 1 sitter and 9 non-sitters as he proposed.

So all you would see (or hear if listening to audio) was the medium talking and there would be no nuances, no yeses, no no s, no questions to sitters or anything else to help one diagnose cold reading, a game of 20 q's or so on. The information was reduced to paper statements and rated by sitters and non-sitters. I do not know much else specific about the protocol so yes, we should wait on this. However, be that as it may, I have also asked Mrs. R about whether transcripts would be available and I even volunteered Clancie to type them (sorry Clancie--) if they weren't available in this format.

While I reserve waiting to see the final published report, it appears as if the researchers more than adequately secured against the possibility of cold, hot and warm reading.

Now let me see about Hoyt's rant. Oh yes, failed experiments are not published. Go back and read ...I said "rarely" ever published, I never ever say never. Certainy disputed procedures and drug trials are published. If someone makes a claim about a procedure or a drug and other investigators find fault with that it is certainly up to them to publish that. However, I was thinking more along the lines of novel research before such claims would be made. If a
researcher thinks he discovered a new molecule that could cure cancer and it doesn't get past Phase I, doesn't work in mice or hood rats, etc. then he is apt to consign this early research to the file drawer if not the round file. And Hoyt, I said, also didn't make it past Phase I.

In fact I have published rebuttals on some disputed procedures myself in my own field. It was for a diagnostic procedure followed by a therapeutic procedure that was alleged to bypass gold standard testing and titration procedues. Over a period of several years I serendipitously got the chance to re-test and re-titrate a dozen or so (and other labs have done likewise) cases who received this procedure. They were miserable failures, leading myself and many others to conclude it did not work. We would be seriously remiss if we did not publish our experiences and present them at meetings and conferences. And yes, if an originator of a failed procedure or drug finds that out himself, it is certainly incumbent on that person to go public with that. If they don't they can be sure others will at some point.

But on the issue of mediumship testing, I remain firm in my statement that it is proper and ethical for investigators to weed out poor performing self professed psychics, psychic-mediums or mediums and retain only those who perform above average. At this level it is not about going after fakes or self-deluded phonies. Randi and the cops at csicops can do that. As mediumship involves parameters of superior performance, not unlike runners, ball players, and race horses, I think it is not only ethical but incumbent for researchers to recruit the best they can find. The public has to realize that like race horses, not all mediums perform above average or even perform well at all. And many are fakes or self-deluded phonies.

It is gratifying so any people choose to join in this interesting thread and that there is such a great deal of interest. It
is sure to grow as publication of the study becomes imminent.
 
Originally posted by Iconoclast:
Steve, it's high time you read Richard Feynman's excellent seminar on "Cargo Cult Science"

Thanks, Been there, done that. If you had had the experience I had with a particular medium , you would be looking for a scientific basis/thesis and proof yourself.
I deal with objective data all day long but in this matter, I don't expect you to understand.

BTW, Feynman's ideas not withstanding, the biggest truly cargo cult time of the year is with us right now......have a Merry Sir Isaac Newton's B' Day.

Thanks for this pointer, however.
 
Posted by Steve Grenard

So all you would see (or hear if listening to audio) was the medium talking and there would be no nuances, no yeses, no no s, no questions to sitters or anything else to help one diagnose cold reading, a game of 20 q's or so on.
I think the transcript of a monologue could still tell a lot about cold reading (hypothetically)--and some other interesting things, too.
Posted by Steve Grenard

The information was reduced to paper statements and rated by sitters and non-sitters.
"reduced to paper statements" and "rated by sitters and non-sitters". Of course, details of this will be great to see as, off hand, these two steps sound like where the greatest "accuracy/interpretation" problems (if any) would be.
Posted by Steve Grenard

I have also asked Mrs. R about whether transcripts would be available and I even volunteered Clancie to type them (sorry Clancie--) if they weren't available in this format.
Say what? :eek:

Lol, Steve. Well, after recovering from my shock at reading that you volunteered me (!), I -did- remember that just a minute before reading this sentence I had been thinking, "Having transcripts of this would be so good to see that I'd even type them up for R&R myself!" Haha!

And, actually, I'd probably -like- to do it myself, to be perfectly honest, since that way I'd know for certain that there was no editing involved. And hearing the mediums on the original tapes would be very very interesting! So, maybe you're not psychic, Steve, but...you -did- get this right! So, yes, if there aren't extreme time constraints, I would definitely be willing to do it....)
 
dharlow,

Thanks for the references. I've never heard of anyone except Hansen (and that, probably only because you've mentioned him before) and, of course, Gauld.

It'll be good be able to go find out more about some current research into this...Tx.
 
SteveGrenard said:
Now let me see about Hoyt's rant. Oh yes, failed experiments are not published. Go back and read ...I said "rarely" ever published, I never ever say never. Certainy disputed procedures and drug trials are published. If someone makes a claim about a procedure or a drug and other investigators find fault with that it is certainly up to them to publish that. However, I was thinking more along the lines of novel research before such claims would be made. If a researcher thinks he discovered a new molecule that could cure cancer and it doesn't get past Phase I, doesn't work in mice or hood rats, etc. then he is apt to consign this early research to the file drawer if not the round file. And Hoyt, I said, also didn't make it past Phase I.

In fact I have published rebuttals on some disputed procedures myself in my own field. It was for a diagnostic procedure followed by a therapeutic procedure that was alleged to bypass gold standard testing and titration procedues. Over a period of several years I serendipitously got the chance to re-test and re-titrate a dozen or so (and other labs have done likewise) cases who received this procedure. They were miserable failures, leading myself and many others to conclude it did not work. We would be seriously remiss if we did not publish our experiences and present them at meetings and conferences. And yes, if an originator of a failed procedure or drug finds that out himself, it is certainly incumbent on that person to go public with that. If they don't they can be sure others will at some point.

But on the issue of mediumship testing, I remain firm in my statement that it is proper and ethical for investigators to weed out poor performing self professed psychics, psychic-mediums or mediums and retain only those who perform above average. At this level it is not about going after fakes or self-deluded phonies. Randi and the cops at csicops can do that. As mediumship involves parameters of superior performance, not unlike runners, ball players, and race horses, I think it is not only ethical but incumbent for researchers to recruit the best they can find. The public has to realize that like race horses, not all mediums perform above average or even perform well at all. And many are fakes or self-deluded phonies.

It is gratifying so any people choose to join in this interesting thread and that there is such a great deal of interest. It
is sure to grow as publication of the study becomes imminent.
Hey, Steve, not only can you not distinguish between your own and material belonging to others, but you can't distinguish between what I've said and the straw you'd like to debate. I repeated back to you, sir, exactly what you said, sir, including, sir, the "rarely", sir. And, as I said, sir, would you like to retract that inane claim or shall I start with the citations?

My example of INDs, was exactly that: an example. The overarching point concerned visibility as the component you missed in your mangled claims about the appropriateness of burying failed experiments. And I maintain, sir, that this is the most inappropriate and addle-brained description of what science is all about that I can imagine.

Now kindly begin addressing these points. The first is your idiotic claim that negative results are rarely published. Please provide evidence for this.
 
Clancie said:
Actually, you don't at all. (In fact, I keep wondering where the "Ed of yore" has gone, lol. Though personally I always thought your posts were okay--after I filtered enough to make them "G" rated...:) ).



I agree, though I think most of it is sloppiness, not "knowingly". I'm sorry to say in Schwartz's case that the flaws have been highlighted so often that sloppiness isn't an excuse any more, though. And, re: Schwartz, I felt sadly convinced that he was -knowingly- fraudulent when I read a description of his seminar by a friendly writer (Justine Picardie's "If the Spirit Moves You...")

Leaving dishes out is sloppy. Our spelling on this board is sloppy. Designing and poorly executing a scientific experiment, if you purport to be a scientist, is malfesence. No excuse. Whipping hell out of data (Princeton, Targ) when that is disipline independent is fraud. The fact that some of these people continue underlines the bankruptcy of the disipline. Tell me, in what eskimo village do you think those cold fusion guys work? In real science there is little forgiveness. In parapsychology there is absolution for all. This general problem makes the area stink to high heaven. I rarely read any serious work, on any subject EXCEPT PARAPSYCHOLOGY, with the first thought through my brain being "are they lieing?".

I don't know, Ed. But I think "clear and unambiguous" should work both ways...and it hasn't, that I can see.

You can't clearly and unambiguously demonstrate the absence of anything. It really only works one way. I won't bore you with the "extraordinary claims blah blah" stuff. Simply put certain people make certain contentions. They must prove it.

To lapse into tedium a bit: If you were looking for financial advice and you came to EdInc, Financial Services and I said "Yo...25% per annum tax free" what would your response be? You would want proof, I hope. It would not be up to you to disprove my contention. Here people are trying to get you to alter your belief system (and some your money too). As a wise consumer you must ask "is it true?".


Actually, I think for most p eople that it is. I really doubt that most credible researchers into this are intentionally "stacking the deck"...or else believers would have a lot more, lot more "definitive" results to quote.

I suspect that if they did not believers would have a lot less then the pittence that they have.

I think most professional researchers- -even those who might like ADC to be true--are professional enough to go where there research takes them....not to try to "phony it up". I can't prove it, but I'd be surprised if fraud was rampant.

They seem to get "hit by the faith" and elaborate way in advance of the data. Again, look at Pear. Based on nothing these guys were positing all sorts of silly mechanisms for non-existant results. To the point where the lack of results were results. Religion. The real sniff test is the unassailable fact that there is not an exemplar experiment that demonstrates ANYTHING in the realm of the paranormal at all, period. Some guy here said something to me about demonstrating schitzophrenia. Cute. The fact is that, wobbly psyhological diagnoses aside, you can demonstrate that. If it is real, you can show it. Real phenomena are, well, real.

One possible conclusion is that there's "nothing" to investigate. Another, of course, is that it is simply extremely difficult to scientifically investigate something as out of our daily realm of experience as ADC would be, if it really exists.

I disagree. In the absence of a laboratory, these things seem to permeate life. Criminy, JE gets slammed by dead guys the moment the tape starts rolling. Science is really nothing more than formal questioning. Are you suggesting that ADC is beyond questioning? If it is a pure belief system and inherently non-falsifiable and you go for it then I submit that you have abrogated your primary responsibility as sentient human being, that is understanding. To each his own.

I'm trying to become more familiar with research into this, past and present, as I realize I know very little about it. I'll let you know if any of the above changes in the process. :)

By all means. While you are at it you might read a real scientific paper, it does not matter what the subject or discipline. The point is for you to see how real scientists approach problems. If I might suggest a couple of choices.

Karl Lashley was a founder of neuropsychology. He was an excellent writer and his pure science, formal papers are quite accessable. For a hoot dig up "the nesting habits of the Noddy and Sooty Terns" it was reprinted in "The Neuropsychology of Lashley" edited by Hebb et al. Don't have to read the whole thing, just get a flavor. In a different direction, there is a book entitled "King Arthurs Round Table" which is a series of essays on the examination of the table in Winchester Castle. Note the rigor, note the triangulation of methods in dating. Look, in fact, at real science. When you have done this go back and read Schwartz or any of these other guys and see why I an furious. What they do ain't science.
 
Get past Phase I and rarely, not never.

Show me all the published studies of drugs and procedures that did not make it past Phase I.....

Get some rest....
 
Ed....

Tell us about the rats whose brains Lashley removed and they still had their memory intact. Is that in the book?
 
SteveGrenard said:
Get past Phase I and rarely, not never.

Show me all the published studies of drugs and procedures that did not make it past Phase I.....

Get some rest....

These are from the FIRST PAGE OF RESULTS from a pubmed search for "Phase II trial"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14679114&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14676110&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14676110&dopt=Abstract

Now, shall we go on with this diversion, sir? Or will you address the rest of my comments about your inane claim? As you will recall my comments on IND trials were simply an example. You have now failed on this diversion. You will also fail to find support for your broader claim that negative scientific results are rarely published. Shall I begin citations for that point?
 
1. Krankenhaus Grosshansdorf, Grosshansdorf, Germany.

BACKGROUND: Trastuzumab provides significant clinical benefits in HER2-positive metastatic breast cancer patients when administered in combination with chemotherapy

CONCLUSION: Successful study. Phase II


2. Johnson BE, Fischer T, Fischer B, Dunlop D, Rischin D, Silberman S, Kowalski MO, Sayles D, Dimitrijevic S, Fletcher C, Hornick J, Salgia R, Le Chevalier T.


CONCLUSIONS: There was no observed antitumor activity in this limited Phase II trial of patients with SCLC, of which only a few tumors showed expression of the imatinib target. The results of this trial are, thus, inconclusive about the antitumor activity of imatinib against SCLC with the targeted KIT receptor (CD117). Further testing of imatinib in patients with SCLC will focus on demonstration of KIT expression in the setting of confirmed SCLC histology.

ADDL CONCLUSION: Phase II. Recommendation for further testing due to possibilities. Not a total failure. What don't you understand abut not getting past Phase I?

3. There is no 3. It is a duplicate of 2.
 
SteveGrenard said:
Ed....

Tell us about the rats whose brains Lashley removed and they still had their memory intact. Is that in the book?

I don't have it handy but his theories were expounded in a book called "Brain Mechanisms and Intelligence". In the book I cited there is a paper called "In Search of the Engram" which is, again as I recall, a transcript of an address where he talks about Mass Action and Equipotentiality.

The core issue was the question of the location of the "Engram" or memory trace. He systematically aspirated rat cortex according to a plan that balanced location and mass of tissue removed. He looked at post-op retention of some task whose nature escapes me. He loved mazes so it might very well have been a t-maze. The lesions were confirmed histologically.

The research led to the development of the concepts of Mass Action (deficit dependent of size of lesion) and Equipotentiallity (deficit not dependent on location of lesion).

Incidentially, did agree you with the couple of diatribes that I posted on the state and nature of paranormal research?
 
SteveGrenard said:
1. Krankenhaus Grosshansdorf, Grosshansdorf, Germany.

BACKGROUND: Trastuzumab provides significant clinical benefits in HER2-positive metastatic breast cancer patients when administered in combination with chemotherapy

CONCLUSION: Successful study. Phase II


2. Johnson BE, Fischer T, Fischer B, Dunlop D, Rischin D, Silberman S, Kowalski MO, Sayles D, Dimitrijevic S, Fletcher C, Hornick J, Salgia R, Le Chevalier T.


CONCLUSIONS: There was no observed antitumor activity in this limited Phase II trial of patients with SCLC, of which only a few tumors showed expression of the imatinib target. The results of this trial are, thus, inconclusive about the antitumor activity of imatinib against SCLC with the targeted KIT receptor (CD117). Further testing of imatinib in patients with SCLC will focus on demonstration of KIT expression in the setting of confirmed SCLC histology.

ADDL CONCLUSION: Phase II. Recommendation for further testing due to possibilities. Not a total failure. What don't you understand abut not getting past Phase I?

3. There is no 3. It is a duplicate of 2.
Steve,

I will follow through on the third, and correct that link for all to see, but only after thrashing you soundly for your usual bullsh!t. What deceitful arrogance it must take for you to deign to re-write the conclusions of a paper presented to you. The first abstract said nothing even remotely approaching your conclusion of a successful study. Is this simply your inability to read? Or perhaps yet another example of your confusing quotes with your own pap?

Here is what that abstract says:
"CONCLUSIONS: Trastuzumab plus gemcitabine-cisplatin is well tolerated. Clinical benefit was not observed. Although HER2 3+/FISH-positive patients may benefit from trastuzumab, the subgroup is too small to provide definitive information. No significant effect of gemcitabine-cisplatin on trastuzumab pharmacokinetics was observed."

Clinical benefit was not observed. The trial failed. What don't you understand about that?

Abstract #2: Here, sir, you try to pull the No True Scotsman maneuver. Your claim, sir, was that negative results are rarely published. This, sir, is now the second example of a negative result. But you wish to change your claim to no definitive, further research-terminating negative results are published. But, please, Steve, one inane claim at a time.

And here is the correct link for number 3: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14670556&dopt=Abstract
Now allow me to quote the conclusion, since you've so clearly demonstrated continued intellectual dishonesty with your claims:
"At the end of the first month, the median change in the PSA value from baseline for the cohort increased by 43%. Green tea toxicity, usually Grade 1 or 2, occurred in 69% of patients and included nausea, emesis, insomnia, fatigue, diarrhea, abdominal pain, and confusion. However, six episodes of Grade 3 toxicity and one episode of Grade 4 toxicity also occurred, with the latter manifesting as severe confusion.Green tea carries limited antineoplastic activity, as defined by a decline in PSA levels, among patients with androgen-independent prostate carcinoma."

Now, sir, for us to continue, I demand that you stop the diversion game, that you stop the NTS game, and that you absolutely cease to substitute your own writing as if it were from the authors quoted. The nonsense you were stopped from doing by hal works both ways. Do not claim others' work as your own and do not claim your statements as belonging to others.
 
So Lashley then didn't know how to explain the retention of memory in rats whose cerebral cortices + more were removed, leading his students such as Karl Pribam and later Bohm to postulate that the brain behaves as a holographic picture.....you can cut a tiny segment out of a holographic representation and when projected it continues to display the entire picture.


Yes, I agree that the state of paranormal research is poor to non-existent due to a variety of factors:

1. Lack of interest by funders
2. Lack of interest by researchers
3. Lack of funds
4. Difficulties deciding which discipline should be in control

The majority of paranormal research over the past 120 years has been done as a hobby by rich people with time available, and/or as a side line to a principal occupation. Hey Ed, you seem to have a lot of money and spare time. Here's a new field for you.
 
I said, and for the last time, that negative results are rarely published for molecules that do not make it past phase I. That means they havent even achieved Phase I and were discarded before that. There are lots of candidates that fall into this category.

These examples are phase II trials. Clearly.

Also: I meant it when I said "rarely." Have you compared the #s of the published Phase I and even Phase II trials against the entire lit base on all published drug studies? What % do you think they represent? And of these, what% are positive studies or which have outcomes calling for additional trials as these you try to foist on us?

I dont understand why you find it instructive to waste so much time on this other than to harass me. I said what I said. Disprove it but don't lie to do so. Thank you. If not, I will ignore all further posts from you, whether in red ink or not.
 
SteveGrenard said:
I said, and for the last time, that negative results are rarely published for molecules that do not make it past phase I. That means they havent even achieved Phase I and were discarded before that. There are lots of candidates that fall into this category.
Here is what you said, sir:
If researchers were testing new products that looked promising for cancer or lipid control or AIDS you can be sure they would bury the poor performers until they got one (or more) that clicked for them. [/b]
Nothing about Phase I, sir.
Also: I meant it when I said "rarely." Have you compared the #s of the published Phase I and even Phase II trials against the entire lit base on all published drug studies? What % do you think they represent? And of these, what% are positive studies or which have outcomes calling for additional trials as these you try to foist on us?
Have you compared? I found three from the first page of twenty. A simple search. You persist in lying about the conclusions, and you fail to understand that a call for more investigation does not equal a successful experiment. That's basic science, sir. You should be ashamed.
I dont understand why you find it instructive to waste so much time on this other than to harass me. I said what I said. Disprove it but don't lie to do so. Thank you. If not, I will ignore all further posts from you, whether in red ink or not.
That's right, Steve. You steal other authors' work and I am guilty of harassment when I call for you to cease or be stopped. You make inane claims, and I am guilty of harassment for challenging you. You meet the challenge with both fallacies and outright lies, and I am guilty of harassing you for pursuing logic and truth.
 

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