Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

The Great Zaganza said:
The FBI disagrees with you.
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Reality agrees with me. The FBI, like any other institution, is highly political. Trump should have cleaned it out to a far greater degree than he has. One of the many ways he has failed.

There are a lot of people in the government very motivated to avoid going too hard on Antifa because, primarily, they are so motivated to portray ring wingers / white nationalists as a FAR greater threat than they are. You should see some of the absolutely clownish instances of them categorizing things as "right wing white nationalist violence" - they'll literally just categorize some stupid little domestic dispute some guy had as a way to pump those numbers up.

Meanwhile, the number of times Antifa have descended on a city and caused outrageous levels of violence and destruction and then 95% of them are let off without charges - proves to me what I already knew: we are living in a country that has largely bought into the leftist world view and this makes it very hard for most of the existing apparatus to ever view anyone on the left, no matter how obviously destructive, in a bad light and vice versa. It is a real uphill climb for these systems to turn their POV around on this.

There are a few local sheriffs and such who have the other view, but by and large, the system is set up to view right wingers as the threat and it's confronting a reality that is exactly opposite of that, with predictable results. Square pegs are being shoved into round holes and round pegs are being let go without bail.

crescent said:
ETA: Photo, moments before the shooting of the victim slapping the shooter. Then the victim sprayed the shooter with bear spray and got shot in return.
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I've heard people saying it looks in that photo like the shooter reached for / tried to grab and take the guy's mace and the guy did the slap in reaction to that. Looking at the position of hands, I can't disagree. Also, looking at the deceased's pattern of behavior on video leading up to this, he does not act like someone who would just pick a random / "minding his own business" security guard guy out and go up and slap him and try to mace him for zero reason. I think this shooter somehow decided it was within his purview to proactively try to disarm this guy of his bear mace, and if that's true, he's a huge idiot.
 
Ahh yes, I forgot about the right to clear public areas with pepper spray for nebulous reasons.

Pepper spray is a weapon. This CHUD brandished it at the wrong person and got clapped. It's as simple as that.

The truth is that CHUDs are getting much too comfortable with the idea of using violence at protests. Their media diet is a non-stop feed that justifies gassing, beating, and driving into crowds of soyboy antifa with impunity. It's all a big joke until the bullets start flying back.

This CHUD got a hard reality check.

Looking forward to the "just run them over" crowd talking about the nuances of self defense law and prortionality because their guy got clapped by a Pinkerton.

I don't know if getting attacked with OC is sufficient threat to justify lethal force, but I do know that a MAGA CHUD getting shot dead by literal Pinkerton in year of our Lord 2020 is objectively hilarious.

ETA: we are witnessing a natural experiment here. Right wing propagandists are already backpedaling on their earlier claims that the shooter was antifa. The local cops have stated he was private security, confirmed by the local news outlet that hired him.

The experiment: well our local right wing crank Skeptic Tank accept the truth here, or dig into the lie that this was a political murder?
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
So everyone vote trump for 4 more years!!!!!
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You know, if someone replies to the Kristallnacht with "butbut heres this one lady whos glass wus broken", you really shouldn't dignify them with a reply. In fact the forum even has features that prevents you from even seeing their posts in the first place.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Reality agrees with me. The FBI, like any other institution, is highly political. Trump should have cleaned it out to a far greater degree than he has. One of the many ways he has failed.

There are a lot of people in the government very motivated to avoid going too hard on Antifa because, primarily, they are so motivated to portray ring wingers / white nationalists as a FAR greater threat than they are. You should see some of the absolutely clownish instances of them categorizing things as "right wing white nationalist violence" - they'll literally just categorize some stupid little domestic dispute some guy had as a way to pump those numbers up.

Meanwhile, the number of times Antifa have descended on a city and caused outrageous levels of violence and destruction and then 95% of them are let off without charges - proves to me what I already knew: we are living in a country that has largely bought into the leftist world view and this makes it very hard for most of the existing apparatus to ever view anyone on the left, no matter how obviously destructive, in a bad light and vice versa. It is a real uphill climb for these systems to turn their POV around on this.

There are a few local sheriffs and such who have the other view, but by and large, the system is set up to view right wingers as the threat and it's confronting a reality that is exactly opposite of that, with predictable results. Square pegs are being shoved into round holes and round pegs are being let go without bail.



I've heard people saying it looks in that photo like the shooter reached for / tried to grab and take the guy's mace and the guy did the slap in reaction to that. Looking at the position of hands, I can't disagree. Also, looking at the deceased's pattern of behavior on video leading up to this, he does not act like someone who would just pick a random / "minding his own business" security guard guy out and go up and slap him and try to mace him for zero reason. I think this shooter somehow decided it was within his purview to proactively try to disarm this guy of his bear mace, and if that's true, he's a huge idiot.
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Yes, this portrayal of right wingers as a violent threat sure is unfair. :(

On a completely unrelated note, here’s you advocating for state-sanctioned mass murder:
Skeptic Tank said:
I wish the police were just straight up opening fire on these groups of protestors at this point
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SuburbanTurkey said:
....ight wing propagandists are already backpedaling on their earlier claims that the shooter was antifa. The local cops have stated he was private security, confirmed by the local news outlet that hired him.
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Here in Denver at least, the right wing people are not doing that. They're claiming the shooter was both professional security AND Antifa, citing a Space Invaders tattoo visible on his wrist.

Also claiming that reporters of such events have learned that they must wear all black to show solidarity with BLM/Antifa/Communists and such or they will be assaulted by BLM/Antifa/Communists. Claiming this as proof that the news organizations need to hire security to protect themselves from the left-wing protesters. Claiming this as proof that the news organizations are the enemy just as much as Antifa and the communists.

To be honest, the right-wing people here come across as positively gleeful about this. They want a war, and this brings that one step closer. They are loving this.


Here in the real world - we know there were two guns taken into evidence. One obviously belongs to the shooter. There does not seem to be any information on who the other gun belonged to - did the shooter have a second gun? Or was the victim armed? In the photo of the shooting, the victim is holding the bear spray in his right arm, his left arm is out of sight - some are suggesting that he is reaching for a gun with the left arm, but that is not at all confirmed.

It was clearly an event that featured lots of confrontational people attending with the goal of being confrontational with the other side's confrontational people. It's not the least bit surprising that all this does nothing to fix the mess we're in.
 
crescent said:
It was clearly an event that featured lots of confrontational people attending with the goal of being confrontational with the other side's confrontational people. It's not the least bit surprising that all this does nothing to fix the mess we're in.
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Is there evidence of this? Protests are often confrontational, but I only see one side that got into an armed conflict at the Denver event. A right wing reactionary attacked a private security guard and got shot for the trouble.

Saying "both sides" in this context is not supported.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Ahh yes, I forgot about the right to clear public areas with pepper spray for nebulous reasons.

Pepper spray is a weapon. This CHUD brandished it at the wrong person and got clapped. It's as simple as that.

The truth is that CHUDs are getting much too comfortable with the idea of using violence at protests. Their media diet is a non-stop feed that justifies gassing, beating, and driving into crowds of soyboy antifa with impunity. It's all a big joke until the bullets start flying back.

This CHUD got a hard reality check.

Looking forward to the "just run them over" crowd talking about the nuances of self defense law and prortionality because their guy got clapped by a Pinkerton.

I don't know if getting attacked with OC is sufficient threat to justify lethal force, but I do know that a MAGA CHUD getting shot dead by literal Pinkerton in year of our Lord 2020 is objectively hilarious.

ETA: we are witnessing a natural experiment here. Right wing propagandists are already backpedaling on their earlier claims that the shooter was antifa. The local cops have stated he was private security, confirmed by the local news outlet that hired him.

The experiment: well our local right wing crank Skeptic Tank accept the truth here, or dig into the lie that this was a political murder?
Click to expand...

Weapons have absolutely no place at a political demonstration. Espeically guns, pepper spray, paint ball guns, and knives. The shooter is being held on first degree murder charges which seems very unreasonable to me. Depending on the details, this will either be a case of a heat of the moment shooting without premeditation or it will be self defense
 
Police had already used pepper balls to try to keep the Antifa away from the right wing people, rattling the barriers put in place to keep the groups separated (that is, the left-wing people moving towards the right wing, not the other way around). The right wing people started in the Ampitheater and stayed there, the left wing people moved towards them.

One dead after gunfire at downtown Denver rallies; private security guard on contract by 9News in custody
The right-wing protesters — led by John Tiegen, an El Paso County resident — gathered in the park’s amphitheater and occasionally chanted patriotic songs and held up banners.
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An hour in, police had fired what appeared to be pepper balls after people from the leftist group started rattling a barrier headed into the amphitheater.
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Then this video, leading up to the shooting. A protester (not the shooter) in the victims face, daring the victim to use the bear spray. The victim then moves off screen back to the right, the gunshot is heard and the victim falls back into the frame the camera jerks around and the video stops. The shooter is not in this video, apparently off screen to the right.

Moments leading up to the #DenverProtests #DenverProtest shooting.



ETA: Just to be clear on "confrontational": Trying to get through the barriers put in place to keep your group away from the other group - that's confrontational, they are attempting to confront the other group. Getting in a person's face and yelling and daring them to mace you - that's confrontational, they are literally confronting each other. "Confrontational" is not limited to actual physical violence.
 
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crescent said:
Police had already used pepper balls to try to keep the Antifa away from the right wing people, rattling the barriers put in place to keep the groups separated (that is, the left-wing people moving towards the right wing, not the other way around). The right wing people started in the Ampitheater and stayed there, the left wing people moved towards them.

One dead after gunfire at downtown Denver rallies; private security guard on contract by 9News in custody





Then this video, leading up to the shooting. A protester (not the shooter) in the victims face, daring the victim to use the bear spray. The victim then moves off screen back to the right, the gunshot is heard and the victim falls back into the frame the camera jerks around and the video stops. The shooter is not in this video, apparently off screen to the right.

Moments leading up to the #DenverProtests #DenverProtest shooting.



ETA: Just to be clear on "confrontational": Trying to get through the barriers put in place to keep your group away from the other group - that's confrontational, they are attempting to confront the other group. Getting in a person's face and yelling and daring them to mace you - that's confrontational, they are literally confronting each other. "Confrontational" is not limited to actual physical violence.
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Sure, and confrontation is legal. While the cops may prefer to separate these crowds to keep the peace, 1A protects the right to protest in a confrontational way.

Yelling at some CHUD is legal, while brandishing a can of mace is not. I'm not seeing any criminal behavior from the protester antagonizing our soon to be dead pepper sprayer. Getting upset because some reactionary presumes to police your 1A protected right to protest is a reasonable and commendable response.

This guy thought he could violently intimidate others in a public place and got his brains scrambled as a result. That's fine by me.

Dude tried to slap someone around only to have his victim pull out a fully Gucci'd Glock and put a round right though his face. Hope pepper spray man had enough moments of life left to realize how bad he ****** up.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Yelling at some CHUD is legal, while brandishing a can of mace is not.
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Here in Colorado, the pepper spray is legal. Carrying it for self defense is legal. He was not pointing it at the first protester - not "brandishing". We don't see what happens with the shooter, the still photo just shows the pepper spray in the air at the same moment as the slide on the gun is still back.

I'm liberal. I know the location of the protests because I attended a protest there myself - in favor of gun control. But - from what information has been released so far, it looks like the Pinkerton agent used lethal force against a non-lethal threat.

I don't mourn the death of a racist fascist. But I don't celebrate a needless death either.
 
crescent said:
Here in Colorado, the pepper spray is legal. Carrying it for self defense is legal. He was not pointing it at the first protester - not "brandishing". We don't see what happens with the shooter, the still photo just shows the pepper spray in the air at the same moment as the slide on the gun is still back.

I'm liberal. I know the location of the protests because I attended a protest there myself - in favor of gun control. But - from what information has been released so far, it looks like the Pinkerton agent used lethal force against a non-lethal threat.

I don't mourn the death of a racist fascist. But I don't celebrate a needless death either.
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I agree that the legality of the shooting is questionable. Even an unprovoked pepper spray attack may not rise to the level of a lethal response.

It's been a strange day watching reactionaries online try to claim a literal Pinkerton is antifa. Aggressive fash got shot by a rent a cop, the left has nothing to do with it.

Right wing brains are going to melt when our Pinkerton starts making a stand your ground legal defense.
 
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crescent said:
Here in Colorado, the pepper spray is legal. Carrying it for self defense is legal. He was not pointing it at the first protester - not "brandishing". We don't see what happens with the shooter, the still photo just shows the pepper spray in the air at the same moment as the slide on the gun is still back.

I'm liberal. I know the location of the protests because I attended a protest there myself - in favor of gun control. But - from what information has been released so far, it looks like the Pinkerton agent used lethal force against a non-lethal threat.

I don't mourn the death of a racist fascist. But I don't celebrate a needless death either.
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listening to the audio, you can clearly hear the discharge of the pepper spray first and then the gunshot in less than a second AFTER the sound of pepper spray. I'm guessing that the shooter may have been already brandishing his gun prior to the pepper spray discharge based on the timing but maybe he was just a super fast draw. I think it would make a difference if the shooter was waving a gun around prior to being pepper-sprayed or not and if there was some good reason for having his gun out. I also question the logic of the press having armed security in the first place. Scratch that. I think it is a bad idea for the press to have armed security.

ETA: I think I can hear the gun being cocked in the video. which puts the order of events as: gun being cocked/brandished, pepper spray, then the shooting. The audio and video doesn't tell us when the pepper spray was brandished.
 
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Shooter may not have met the legal requirements to work security.

Victim, security guard suspect in fatal shooting during Denver protests are identified

While Pinkerton had an active license to employ security guards in Denver, officials have no record that Dolloff had the required city license to work as a private security guard, said Eric Escudero, spokesman for the Denver Department of Excise and Licenses.

“We do not currently have an active license and have never had an active license for anybody with that name,” he said. “If he was operating as a security guard, he was in violation of the law.”

The cities of Denver, Colorado Springs and Glendale require private security guards to obtain city-issued licenses, though there are no statewide license requirements. Denver’s licensing process requires guards to complete 16 hours of training by an “eligible training provider” before working in the city. Further training is required before a guard can carry a firearm during work or dress in plainclothes.
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That seems a bit odd to me. Pinkerton has a checkered history, they were used in the early 20th century to put down labor strikes (brutally) and they still haven't managed to catch Butch and Sundance. But they are hardly newbies to this line of work, I would think they would be pretty proficient at understanding the licensing requirements for their business.
 
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crescent said:
----snip---

That seems a bit odd to me. Pinkerton has a checkered history, they were used in the early 20th century to put down labor strikes (brutally) and they still haven't managed to catch Butch and Sundance. But they are hardly newbies to the business, I would think they would be pretty proficient at understanding the licensing requirements for their business.
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It would not surprise me to find that there has been a large increase in the demand for private security guards this year. Procedures are often skipped or delayed in the rush to fill a contract. That doesn't excuse this, but it does explain it.

I suspect that Pinkerton has stepped in it, both criminally and civilly.
 
portlandatheist said:
Weapons have absolutely no place at a political demonstration. Espeically guns, pepper spray, paint ball guns, and knives. The shooter is being held on first degree murder charges which seems very unreasonable to me. Depending on the details, this will either be a case of a heat of the moment shooting without premeditation or it will be self defense
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I dunno - I'm okay with long guns, in theory, at rallies where authorities are seriously overstepping their bounds - such as when police take to rioting, teargassing entire city blocks, and so forth.

Problem is, lately these have mostly been shouting buffoons who insist that the same face masks doctors and nurses wear for hours are going to kill them if they wear them for a quick shopping trip.

Agree on 1st degree murder being far too high - although the white supremacists marching around and screeching about how BLM are terrorists (despite being connected to no known terrorist plans or activities) are the least sympathetic "victims" I can conceive of.
 
Shadowdweller said:
I would really like to know how walking around not merely carrying a firearm - but carrying one with your finger on the trigger and pushing around opposition in a highly contentious political "protest" does not at least constitute criminal menacing in this country.
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Who's gonna enforce it? Not the PPB.

There's no need to speculate. The armed men were shooting paintball guns and throwing things at counter protestors from several stories up a parking deck without consequence from police on the scene. The cops generally won't lift a finger to stop right wing violence.

The cops aren't impartial agents of the law. At least in Portland, it's clear they have chosen a side.

https://twitter.com/1misanthrophile/status/1315423448445804544?s=19
 
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