Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

Silly Green Monkey said:
"If people just make the change they've refused to make, maybe we can actually get some changes made?"
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I think the protests and the social attention on the issue have served the purpose of raising awareness and making it an issue that clearly needs to be addressed.

I don't think that riots have helped at all. And I think that the longer the rioting continues, the less likely we are to be able to give the issue of racial inequity in the justice system the attention that it needs.
 
Mumbles said:
Cops not killing/brutalizing/robbing black people (and really people of every race, but black and indigenous people more so than other groups) is the desired change.

Told y'all years ago that younger black and brown people weren't having any more of the nonsense we were forced to tolerate during the crack era when Reagan was looking for excuses to reinforce US-style apartheid. That nonsense is for the Bernie Bros and cable news pundits.

"But aren't broken windows just as bad as 12-year old kids being gunned down by the state for playing in a park?" The correct answer is no. So get to work, help defund and reform the police.
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If the majority of the rioters were minorities, I'd have a bit more sympathy. But so far as I've seen the black people are protesting, marching (even armed sometimes :) ) and talking about the issues... and a bunch of privileged and bored white kids are burning things down and looting stores - including minority owned businesses. So I'm not really sure how "we told you" is really addressing the current issues.
 
Interesting read, by an anonymous journo. You know, like Assange.

https://survivalblog.com/intelligence-gathering-protests-j-d/

...The narrative being presented was that these protests were not centrally organized and that they were grass-roots protests just springing up in response to social issues. My time inside the protests verified that this just isn’t true; they are very organized and are being planned by someone......

.....Antifa “Security”

The first one I attended was on the University of Michigan campus. The protest was rather large, about 1,500 people. What I found interesting was that the first speaker pointed out that “allies from RevCom/ANTIFA” were present, just to provide “logistical support” including medical and security teams. The local RevCom leader got up and explained how to find the medics (Large red or green crosses) and explained that security was “circulating among the crowd” for safety. That was an ominous statement, as I’ll point out later.....

The biggest observation from the first protest was that despite the claims that they aren’t organized, they are highly organized by a central organization. Ethan and his security/medical team have been at every protest I’ve attended in Michigan, including one at the Capitol an hour away. They use the ubiquitous BaoFeng Handi-talkie radios to communicate....

Contrived Escalation

As a follow-up, after I observed one protest in Detroit, my friend Ethan came out of the shadows and made a Twitter post that the Detroit Police had tried to run him over, complete with video. I was there. They surrounded the police cars and began beating on them, trying to force the police to use deadly force or hit them with the cars. The entire situation was a set-up designed to produce a new incident to create more tension and protests....
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It's about what I figured. From another source, the U.S.Justice Dept. is looking for those who "foment the riots". Follow the money. Koche? Russians? Chinese? ...Bloomburg and yellow journalism?
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
I was referencing the more recent protest, in which Proud Boys rushed crowds of unarmed, peaceful protesters and beat them while they fled.
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I'm not ignoring your comments; just digesting them. The Proud Boys scenario I thought involved shoving people to the ground, not clubbing them with a baseball bat. I'm still mulling over whether I believe (all?) cops are institutionally aligned with right-wing violence.

Interesting developments in the Reinoehl shooting, waiting to see what else comes out. The initial Justice Department statement seemed carefully tailored to accommodate a wide variety of scenarios, from summary execution to absolutely justified return fire on the part of officers. I have no trouble believing Reinoehl was armed; I would be surprised if he wasn't.

Maybe I'm a bit thick but you make a key point that I really hadn't put together before: IF cops are institutionally aligned with right-wing violence THEN left-wing vigilantes are justified in using even pre-emptive violence against alt-right counter-protesters. Not only justified, but commendation-worthy. "Good, another fascist dead" seems to be a fairly common response.

I wish Reinoehl had stopped with shooting the can of bear spray (and Danielson's hand in the process). But, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. Don't worry, I'm not swayed by the "crocodile tears" of the right. I just see how others might be - without being literally Nazi collaborators.

SuburbanTurkey said:
The police, through their targeted non-enforcement of the law, are endorsing the current dangerous climate.
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I'm not sure you're wrong, but what then is the correct moral action?
 
After over 100 nights of demonstration against police brutality, Ted "Tear Gas" Wheeler bans use of tear gas in Portland until further notice. Unclear if this is a response to public backlash to the cops and their heavy handed tactics, or just a temporary measure related to the very poor air quality due to wildfire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ittk2X6YjdU&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=MayorTedWheeler


There has been recent reporting about non-protesting residents, including children, having gas enter their homes because of the heavy use of tear gas in residential streets by the cops. There is also growing concern what affect long term tear gas exposure might have on people, specifically female reproductive systems, and the local environment. Such extended use of tear gas is unprecedented.

Edit: Minoosh, your post asks questions that merit a thoughtful and thorough response. No reply yet, but I'm not ignoring it.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
...

There has been recent reporting about non-protesting residents, including children, having gas enter their homes because of the heavy use of tear gas in residential streets by the cops. There is also growing concern what affect long term tear gas exposure might have on people, specifically female reproductive systems, and the local environment. Such extended use of tear gas is unprecedented.
...
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Can you specify the type of "gas" being used? Locally, they used pepper spry grenades, I don't think Capsaicin causes reproductive harm. It's NOT Agent Orange. If it did, women could use Tabasco as birth control.
 
casebro said:
Interesting read, by an anonymous journo. You know, like Assange.

It's about what I figured. From another source, the U.S.Justice Dept. is looking for those who "foment the riots". Follow the money. Koche? Russians? Chinese? ...Bloomburg and yellow journalism?
Click to expand...


Hard for me to give much credence to anonymous contributors. But the overall idea that there is a rhyme and reason to these protests would have to be correct. There is nothing nefarious about that though, unless an "insider" was actually able to corroborate some overall level of disregard for life and safety.

Why in the world would protesters not direct their efforts in the most effective way. It would not surprise me if marketers are at the head of this, not necessarily for some unknown profit but because the skills would overlap. Take big data from any demonstration, frame pictures and video, memes etc to paint the picture you want. See which actions, locations, venues serve best to gain exposure or pressure on those you want it to.

When I look at the cs gas use in the areas that got a lot of press, who knows what level of push back the mayor had from that as well. Perhaps protester were planning to continue focusing their locations to ones which would inevitably actually hurt the most people with gas in those neighborhoods, but for the purpose of making it impossible for the police to continue using it without more push back than they are capable of handling now.

It will always be a fine line involved here though. What I take away is that their will always be a skewed view of the inner workings going on in both the protest/antiprotest/police sides.
 
casebro said:
Can you specify the type of "gas" being used? Locally, they used pepper spry grenades, I don't think Capsaicin causes reproductive harm. It's NOT Agent Orange. If it did, women could use Tabasco as birth control.
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PPB has been using proper CS tear gas.

ETA: According to this article, they've bought both CS (tear) and OC (pepper) in multiple forms. No idea if the ban applies to both.

The concerns over harmful side effects is around CS gas.

PPB spent roughly $20,000 solely for chemical riot agents on June 1 and almost $13,000 went to specialized filters for masks:

- $2,235 on canisters filled with CS to be fired from a launcher
- $3,231 on canisters filled with OC to be fired from a launcher
- $5,718 on chemical grenades filled with OC
- $5,056 on chemical grenades filled with CS
- $4,299 on OC aerosol spray
- $12,881 on specialized filters for police masks to remove chemicals
- $1,758 on other OC and CS grenades
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https://katu.com/news/following-the-money/portland-police-bureau-spent-thousands-on-chemical-munitions-shortly-after-george-floyd-protests-began
 
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casebro said:
Interesting read, by an anonymous journo. You know, like Assange.

It's about what I figured. From another source, the U.S.Justice Dept. is looking for those who "foment the riots". Follow the money. Koche? Russians? Chinese? ...Bloomburg and yellow journalism?
Click to expand...

Yes, nothing more suspicious than a large event being actually coordinated by someone.

I can only hope that the protests are at least as well coordinated as the police and right wing extremists are with each other.
 
casebro said:
Can you specify the type of "gas" being used? Locally, they used pepper spry grenades, I don't think Capsaicin causes reproductive harm. It's NOT Agent Orange. If it did, women could use Tabasco as birth control.
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I do not recommend applying it vaginally.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
PPB has been using proper CS tear gas.

ETA: According to this article, they've bought both CS (tear) and OC (pepper) in multiple forms. No idea if the ban applies to both.

The concerns over harmful side effects is around CS gas.



https://katu.com/news/following-the-money/portland-police-bureau-spent-thousands-on-chemical-munitions-shortly-after-george-floyd-protests-began
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Hmmm. I was under the impression that CS was illegal, it is for military use only.
 
casebro said:
Hmmm. I was under the impression that CS was illegal, it is for military use only.
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It's the other way around: It's a chemical weapon banned in war but police can use it.

ETA: From USA Today:
The claim: Tear gas is a chemical weapon banned in war

"I was under the impression that ..." strikes me as a useful phrase for getting inaccurate claims into discourse.

I don't think it should be banned in war, though. If we can agree not to use certain weapons why can't we agree to not have wars?
 
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Minoosh said:
I'm still mulling over whether I believe (all?) cops are institutionally aligned with right-wing violence.
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Would the fact the FBI thinks so help you believe?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

I purposely used a link from 2016 and a neutral source like PBS to avoid anyone thinking this is just a knee-jerk reaction to current events. Just search "FBI says police aligned with white supremacist groups" for tons of articles spanning many years.
 
Minoosh said:
I'm still mulling over whether I believe (all?) cops are institutionally aligned with right-wing violence.
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Max_mang said:
Would the fact the FBI thinks so help you believe?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement
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Infiltrated by =/= aligned with; though clearly there are at least some jurisdictions that approach the latter (c.f. Ahmaud Arbery). Is BLM collectively responsible for this (starting around 0:45) in your mind?
 
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Ziggurat said:
“Two other witnesses also told the Olympian they had seen Reinoehl fire a weapon at police.”

But that doesn’t make as dramatic a headline, so they leave that buried in the text.
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It's a real mess of conflicting narratives, not least of which is that the cops on the scene have told contradictory stories. Another case where body cams would be helpful to exonerate wrongly accused cops, or expose police murder, depending on the facts. Why do cops oppose bodycams?

Whether or not Reinoehl was armed and ever shot seems like the kind of thing that can be known with a high level of certainty through an examination of the crime scene, but that would require a degree of transparency from the police. I'm not holding my breath.
 
I've taken the liberty to chop up your post and reorganized it into two chunks to address separately. I hope this is acceptable.

Minoosh said:
I'm not ignoring your comments; just digesting them. The Proud Boys scenario I thought involved shoving people to the ground, not clubbing them with a baseball bat. I'm still mulling over whether I believe (all?) cops are institutionally aligned with right-wing violence.

Interesting developments in the Reinoehl shooting, waiting to see what else comes out. The initial Justice Department statement seemed carefully tailored to accommodate a wide variety of scenarios, from summary execution to absolutely justified return fire on the part of officers. I have no trouble believing Reinoehl was armed; I would be surprised if he wasn't.

I wish Reinoehl had stopped with shooting the can of bear spray (and Danielson's hand in the process). But, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. Don't worry, I'm not swayed by the "crocodile tears" of the right. I just see how others might be - without being literally Nazi collaborators.
Click to expand...

Based on experience with firearms, I think it's extremely unlikely that Reinoehl intentionally struck the can of bear spray. Jokes on my part about marksmanship aside, it's almost inconceivable that someone shooting at a person would even attempt what is essentially a trick shot or be successful. In all likelihood, the can was just hit incidentally as Reinoehl fired at Danielson. I don't think there was enough time between the two shots to assess the situation.

I think there's enough evidence that Reinoehl may have had a legitimate self-defense claim. The video clearly shows Danielson firing the mace first, and his collapsible metal baton was seen open on the ground near his dead body. Given that Danielson was part of a mob of people that spent the day pepperspraying and clubbing protesters on their convoy through the city, it does't strike me as that implausible that Danielson may have been the aggressor here. Given that Reinoehl was killed by the police, there will be no trial and likely no deep examination of the event to find out the truth, so there's not much point in splitting hairs about it now.

Self-defense or not, your second point I find the more interesting question.

Minoosh said:
Maybe I'm a bit thick but you make a key point that I really hadn't put together before: IF cops are institutionally aligned with right-wing violence THEN left-wing vigilantes are justified in using even pre-emptive violence against alt-right counter-protesters. Not only justified, but commendation-worthy. "Good, another fascist dead" seems to be a fairly common response.

I'm not sure you're wrong, but what then is the correct moral action?
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Police aligning themselves with the right and granting them a free pass to commit political violence is a very serious problem, and it doesn't really leave a lot of good solutions.

The best possible one would be for pressure to be placed on the cops to stop this corruption. The first step in doing so is publicly and forcefully making the accusation, and for people in power to acknowledge that it's a problem. It's a form of corruption, the police are using their authority in order to advocate their own political interests. How exactly this kind of corruption can be addressed, I'm not sure. I would note that, while related, this is not the same issue of the police brutalizing protesters during anti-cop protests. It's entirely possible for PPB to continue gassing and beating anti-police protesters and to crack down on right wing violence.

It wouldn't take many non-corrupt cops, granted the appropriate authority, to start making arrests of the known violent actors in the PNW scene. There is a core of known violent agitators that are spearheading this fascistic violence in the streets, and there exists right now enough evidence to place most of them under arrest. Alan Swinney is a useful "canary in the coalmine". His continuing immunity from police action is a clear signal that the right has permission to continue to commit violence.

If the police corruption is not or cannot be addressed, there's not a lot of pretty options left. If permission is granted to the right to commit political violence, the moral action is to violently oppose it. Legality largely goes out the window as cops are intentionally creating an atmosphere of permitted lawlessness for their allies. Antifascists should try to avoid legal entanglements and consequences for self-preservation reasons, but this is by no means a moral imperative to remain non-violent in the face of fascist violence that is allowed by the police.

Danielson wasn't just some random MAGA hat guy that got targeted by a antifa type and murdered. He was part of a Patriot Prayer mob that is organized around the goal of committing violence against the people of Portland. He was wearing the uniform of an organization that spent the day attacking the city, and was armed. In short, he was a member of an informal street army and died a soldier's death. I see no scandal here, other than the obvious scandal that the police are endorsing this sectarian atmosphere.

When it comes to uniformed neo-brownshirts such as Proud Boys or Patriot Prayer, I think wartime rules of engagement become morally acceptable. These people are modern day fascist Freikorps. So long as they remain open belligerents, they are fair game by hook or crook. Mutual firefights, ambushes, assassinations, whatever. This isn't a boxing match, it's straight up combat. There is no moral imperative for "gentlemanly war" or waiting for the enemy to fire the first shot.

There are two groups right now that can de-escalate this situation and restore a moral peace. The fascists can stop committing attacks on non-violent political demonstration, or the police can start arresting them when they commit violence. I don't see any way for the antifascists to restore peace other than to cede the public sphere to fascists and surrender their rights to political expression, which is unacceptable for the obvious reasons.
 
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