Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[llwyd]

Soldier vs. soldier.

Anyone who brings weapons to the scene is a soldier. Full stop.

Even so for weapons brought for the purpose of self-defense. You are automatically a soldier. Full stop.

Nope. And a weapon does not a soldier make.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What happened to skateboard soldier? He's right on top of the enemy soldier and beating him with the board... seemingly aiming for the head but I am not certain if that.

Was he shot? I'm sure I could find out by reading reports, but maybe someone has a quick answer.

It was skateboard vs. rifle. I do know that part.

My understanding is that he was the guy that died from a gunshot wound to the torso. The other guy with a pistol was shot in the arm.

Based on my viewing, it seems to me the pistol guy was attempting to take the shooter alive. I don't see anywhere claiming that the pistol guy ever actually shot, despite being at close range and having ample opportunity.

 

[johnny karate]

"Protesters" who chased him down after attempting to provoke a fight, physically assaulted him with a skateboard and pointed a gun at him. You may ignore those three facts but I doubt a jury will.

This was after Rittenhouse already shot someone.

This is also while Rittenhouse was in the process of committing the crimes of being illegally armed and in the streets after curfew.

Meanwhile, you go to great lengths to dredge up any extraneous detail you can to rationalize the cops shooting Blake in the back seven times.

Gosh, I wonder why the black guy is subjected to such scrutiny but the white guy isn’t.

 

[lomiller]

For better or for worse (probably worse), the US is the big hitter in the world, and a significant driver of policy across the globe. For the most part, a lot of our international policy and the stances we take benefit countries that are predominantly democratic in structure, and detriment countries that are communist, totalitarian, or similar in nature (even when we've helped create those messes in the first place).

Like what? The US seeks to advance it’s own interests just like China does and democracy elsewhere is tolerated if and only if people vote the way the US wants them to. If elected governments don’t do what the US wants, they are likely to find themselves labeled as communist or totalitarian.

The US used to be one of the leaders in promoting global trade, but even there it always tried to stack the deck in it’s own favor. As of right now though it’s very much comparable to China and is trying to pursue trade polices that border on the Mercantilism of the 1600’s.

Maybe you are thinking of the distinctly American myth that the US “exports freedom” but the fact is it’s just the opposite. (Maybe that’s why there isn’t enough freedom to go around in the US, it’s all been exported!) If you are a citizen of one of these other democracies the US engaged in an almost unfettered monitoring campaign on you, pressures you government to do what it wants instead of what you voted for and makes laws governing what you can do even though you are not American and not doing it on the US.

China tries to do the same, but seriously, when was the last time China confiscated ships in international waters for breaking Chinese laws. What gives the US this right to make laws governing what non-Americans can do outside US borders? Do you really think it helps democracy when a country makes laws and tries to enforce them on people who have never been to that country and have no say in what laws it’s making?

Instability in the US weakens the role of the US internationally, it directs our attention inward. This also effectively reduces our supporting role toward our allies, and reduces our opposition to our adversaries.

Allies like Russia and rivals like the EU…

 

[Bogative]

This was after Rittenhouse already shot someone.

In self-defense. All they knew was he was running down the street. One might say "just out for a jog."

This is also while Rittenhouse was in the process of committing the crimes of being illegally armed and in the streets after curfew.

Crimes for which he should be charged and tried.

"Shoot me n-word" was a 36-year-old convicted felon who spent 12 1/2 years in prison for diddling a child, with multiple charges for violence and weapons while in prison and he had charges pending for domestic abuse and battery. He was also breaking curfew.

Skateboard boy was also a convicted felon who served prison time for unlawful imprisonment with a deadly weapon and strangulation of his girlfriend, he later went back to prison for domestic battery. Also breaking curfew.

Gimped-up-arm douche with the pistol was arrested and charged with felony burglary, arrested for violating probation and arrested again a few months later. It's unclear if he was convicted of the felony, but if the was, that would make him an illegal weapons possessor. He also broke curfew.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

In self-defense. All they knew was he was running down the street. One might say "just out for a jog."

Crimes for which he should be charged and tried.

"Shoot me n-word" was a 36-year-old convicted felon who spent 12 1/2 years in prison for diddling a child, with multiple charges for violence and weapons while in prison and he had charges pending for domestic abuse and battery. He was also breaking curfew.

Skateboard boy was also a convicted felon who served prison time for unlawful imprisonment with a deadly weapon and strangulation of his girlfriend, he later went back to prison for domestic battery. Also breaking curfew.

Gimped-up-arm douche with the pistol was arrested and charged with felony burglary, arrested for violating probation and arrested again a few months later. It's unclear if he was convicted of the felony, but if the was, that would make him an illegal weapons possessor. He also broke curfew.

Yes, none of these people would be in a good position to make a self-defense claim. Only one of them actually killed anyone that night, so it's not really worth speculating about hypothetical self-defense claims of these other people.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm sorry have we sufficiently genuflected for the contextless 30 second film of a white woman being yelled at yet?

 

[johnny karate]

In self-defense. All they knew was he was running down the street. One might say "just out for a jog."

So you claim.

Crimes for which he should be charged and tried.

Good, you’ve admitted Rittenhouse is a criminal. We’re making progress.

"Shoot me n-word" was a 36-year-old convicted felon who spent 12 1/2 years in prison for diddling a child, with multiple charges for violence and weapons while in prison and he had charges pending for domestic abuse and battery. He was also breaking curfew.

Skateboard boy was also a convicted felon who served prison time for unlawful imprisonment with a deadly weapon and strangulation of his girlfriend, he later went back to prison for domestic battery. Also breaking curfew.

Gimped-up-arm douche with the pistol was arrested and charged with felony burglary, arrested for violating probation and arrested again a few months later. It's unclear if he was convicted of the felony, but if the was, that would make him an illegal weapons possessor. He also broke curfew.

Your argument seems to be that because these people were criminals, what happened to them was justified.

We’ve determined that Rittenhouse is also a criminal.

Does the same logic apply to him?

 

[Sherkeu]

Yeah, poor kid was just minding his own business when he crossed state lines to illegally carry a rifle at an overnight riot. Wrong place, wrong time, could happen to anyone

There was so much law breaking going on it's hard to know where to start.
Every person out there was in violation of curfew. Then you can add on all the destruction, vandalism, arson, etc...
The guys chasing him had long spear-like weapons. Kids were carrying heavy mallets, hammers, pistols, gasoline. So crazy!

Listening to their live streams for a decent length of time it really sounds like kids playing inside a video game like Call of Duty. And no matter what happens, they don't put down that phone! It's strange seeing all those screens lit up even as they are in a dangerous situation or someone is hurt or dying.

This are not BLM protests, it is something with deeper cultural and psychological underpinnings. The analysis post riot-phase will be interesting.

 

[JoeMorgue]

*Gasp* Violating curfew!

Well I'm convinced it's a moral tragedy any of them survived the night. They should have just dropped a nuke on the city like they are trying to stop a zombie outbreak.

 

[johnny karate]

There was so much law breaking going on it's hard to know where to start.
Every person out there was in violation of curfew. Then you can add on all the destruction, vandalism, arson, etc...
The guys chasing him had long spear-like weapons. Kids were carrying heavy mallets, hammers, pistols, gasoline. So crazy!

Listening to their live streams for a decent length of time it really sounds like kids playing inside a video game like Call of Duty. And no matter what happens, they don't put down that phone! It's strange seeing all those screens lit up even as they are in a dangerous situation or someone is hurt or dying.

This are not BLM protests, it is something with deeper cultural and psychological underpinnings. The analysis post riot-phase will be interesting.

Whatever criminal activity was taking place in those streets, Rittenhouse was an active participant.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

There was so much law breaking going on it's hard to know where to start.
Every person out there was in violation of curfew. Then you can add on all the destruction, vandalism, arson, etc...
The guys chasing him had long spear-like weapons. Kids were carrying heavy mallets, hammers, pistols, gasoline. So crazy!

Listening to their live streams for a decent length of time it really sounds like kids playing inside a video game like Call of Duty. And no matter what happens, they don't put down that phone! It's strange seeing all those screens lit up even as they are in a dangerous situation or someone is hurt or dying.

This are not BLM protests, it is something with deeper cultural and psychological underpinnings. The analysis post riot-phase will be interesting.

Seems to be a pretty significant distinction between these groups. Protesters range from people wanting to wave signs and shout at the cops to arsonists and brick throwers. For all the damage done to property and violent skirmishes, it doesn't really seem like there is much an effort from the protesters to actually kill anyone.

Militia types, on the other hand, attend heavily armed for the sole purpose of confronting the protesters. They seek out scenarios in which they can kill people. The initiate confrontations that even the cops deem to be too risky and against the public interest.

Armed militia types are the most likely non-police actors out there that might end up killing someone, and yet cops treat them as pseudo-official allies. Makes you really wonder about the discretion of the cops when they consider teenagers enforcing their amateur understanding of the law at gun point a positive addition to a riot.

 

[Bogative]

So you claim.

Yes, because Rosenbaum is seen in two separate videos chasing Rittenhouse into the car lot as Rittenhouse turns around to shoot him.

Your argument seems to be that because these people were criminals, what happened to them was justified.

Nope, just providing a little background info like others had previously in the thread when they found out who Rittenhouse was. Apparently, Rittenhouse's membership in a youth police program, firefighting program and support for Blue Lives Matter was relevant.

We’ve determined that Rittenhouse is also a criminal.

Does the same logic apply to him?

A nonviolent criminal who was not chasing down and physically assaulting anyone. You understand the difference.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, because Rosenbaum is seen in two separate videos chasing Rittenhouse into the car lot as Rittenhouse turns around to shoot him.

And what happened in the moments that lead to what we see in the videos?

Because every time we see video of white cops murdering a black guy we are told we need to wait for all the evidence before we can determine what really happened.

Do you have all the evidence? Or is this a special case where all you need is a minute or two of out of context video footage?

Nope, just providing a little background info like others had previously in the thread when they found out who Rittenhouse was. Apparently, Rittenhouse's membership in a youth police program, firefighting program and support for Blue Lives Matter was relevant.

Such a shame he chose to throw it all away to become a criminal.

A nonviolent criminal who was not chasing down and physically assaulting anyone. You understand the difference.

Well, along with being a criminal participant in a riot, he shot three people and is facing murder charges. I’m not sure “non-violent” is an apt descriptor.

 

[William Parcher]

I don't actually know, but it would seem that there might be a law saying you can't leave the scene or the state if you have killed and injured some people. I don't know. Rittenhouse just simply left.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I don't actually know, but it would seem that there might be a law saying you can't leave the scene or the state if you have killed and injured some people. I don't know. Rittenhouse just simply left.

To be fair, the cops let him go.

I think even Rittenhouse was surprised by that. He walked into the police line with his hands in the air and they just drove off.

But yes, generally speaking people who commit lawful self-defense shootings tend to make themselves available to the police.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't actually know, but it would seem that there might be a law saying you can't leave the scene or the state if you have killed and injured some people. I don't know. Rittenhouse just simply left.

Yes, that is against the law. Another crime Rittenhouse committed that we can add to the list.

 

[johnny karate]

To be fair, the cops let him go.

I think even Rittenhouse was surprised by that. He walked into the police line with his hands in the air and they just drove off.

I can’t believe they didn’t offer him more water. The poor kid was probably parched. I’m sure that criminality is thirsty work.

 

[jeremyp]

To be fair, the cops let him go.

I think even Rittenhouse was surprised by that. He walked into the police line with his hands in the air and they just drove off.

On seeing that video of him walking to the police with his hands in the air and a gun slung around his neck, my mother's comment was "if he'd been black, they probably would have shot him".

All this arguing about who was justified or not when shooting whom is a bit like arguing about the relative flammability of the furniture and the curtains and ignoring the fact that your house is on fire.

The USA is trapped in a cycle of violence and the only way out of it is if at least one group of people starts behaving like civilised grown ups instead of going round looking for "bad" people to shoot.

 

[BStrong]

White kid with rifle in Kenosha = vigilante.

Black men with rifles in Louisville = militia.