Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[carlitos]

Just checking in to read Ziggurat’s evidence for George Floyd having a “massive overdose.” I’d hate to think that a poster on a skeptics board would just mindlessly parrot a right wing talking point and then run away once the next talking point comes along.

 

[rockysmith76]

I don't think its ok. I don't think you're going to find many on the left that thinks it is ok. The problem is hooligans too often co-opt protests.

More denial, this was Antifa and the Boogiloos, proving both sides suck and are equally guilty.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm just curious, since we're going on over 2 months of continuous protests in Portland, how many more nights of tear gas and beatings should go on before there is just a general acknowledgment that PPB's tactics are totally ineffective in keeping the peace?

Even if you characterize these events of riots instigated by criminals, isn't it quite clear now that the current heavy handed tactics are an abysmal failure?

What further force can the cops use? They've got the full inventory of less lethal technology at work and it's not doing crap. If anything, it's further antagonizing the public and provoking a further escalation from the mobs. Should they start firing live rounds into the crowd? What's left for them to do?

Isn't it time to admit that this attempt to suppress the protests has completely failed and change tactics?

 

[Shadowdweller]

Btw, here's one of the groups that does appear to have ties to some of the more destructive protests/riots in Portland (two different links there). I generally support police reform and BLM, but these people are seriously ******* insane. Or at least some of them are. As in, want to stop other people from even talking to the police, want to abolish police altogether; and possibly private property.

More anarchist than Antifa as far as I can tell. But YMMV.

 

[portlandatheist]

Hold on a minute, we don't actually know what the motives of his attacker were yet.

However, protestors held his attacker down for arrest, exactly as expected.

To their much deserved credit. The original article didn't have the details about the "Black Rebel"s previous political activities and it was added later.
Clearly the guy is trouble.

 

[portlandatheist]

Anyone have any definitive body count by protesters in support of BLM? The CHOP shooting comes to mind, and this stabbing.

We know for a fact that several killings have taken place by counter protesters, and the list of serious maiming by cops and counter protesters is quite long. Just by my quick assessment, it's quite clear that the protesters in the streets are the least violent of all the groups involved.

Just off the top of my head:

Boog boys arrested by feds in bombing plot out of Nevada
Boog boy kills federal security officers with illegal machine gun/silencer combo.
Albuquerque man assaults 3 and shoots one to defend the honor of a statue.
Portland Pipe bomber.
Numerous examples of deliberate maiming by police using rubber bullets
The National Guard guy facing a discharge for plotting to kill DC protesters, sharing plans on nazi social media
KKK leader driving car into protesters, recently convicted
Philly cop charged with aggravated battery on protester
Cop shoot fellow officer through door fearing antifa.
Buffalo cops crack old man's head


It seems by any objective matter, BLM protesters are the least dangerous group compared to cops or counter protesters.

I think more people have been blinded by cops shooting rubber bullets than the grand total of serious assaults or actual murders by BLM protesters.

You are a scorekeeper, you do it all the time, and I honestly don't understand the point of this exercise. Yes, the violent, racist and completely nutty right-wingers are far worse and far more dangerous. We all get that. For example:
Timothy McVeigh was also a revolutionary with an obsession for attacking a federal building and disregard for human lives inside and that is far far worse than these current events and revolutionaries and their attacks on the federal building and their relative disregard for the lives inside. What is happening now is far far tamer. What's your point exactly? When they light small fires inside the occupied building, they get a pass because it isn't a fertilizer bomb? Boog boys are worse than Antifa. Yes, but so what?

 

[uke2se]

You are a scorekeeper, you do it all the time, and I honestly don't understand the point of this exercise. Yes, the violent, racist and completely nutty right-wingers are far worse and far more dangerous. We all get that. For example:
Timothy McVeigh was also a revolutionary with an obsession for attacking a federal building and disregard for human lives inside and that is far far worse than these current events and revolutionaries and their attacks on the federal building and their relative disregard for the lives inside. What is happening now is far far tamer. What's your point exactly? When they light small fires inside the occupied building, they get a pass because it isn't a fertilizer bomb? Boog boys are worse than Antifa. Yes, but so what?

It's about intent. You clearly don't like Antifa or their actions, and you claim not to like the Fascists that they are protesting. You are square in the middle, and like most centrists, are spending most of your time complaining about those on the left. However, there is a reason people keep telling you the Fascists are clearly who you should be worrying about, and it's all about intent. What is the intent of the Fascists, and what is the intent of Antifa?

 

[portlandatheist]

It's about intent. You clearly don't like Antifa or their actions, and you claim not to like the Fascists that they are protesting. You are square in the middle, and like most centrists, are spending most of your time complaining about those on the left. However, there is a reason people keep telling you the Fascists are clearly who you should be worrying about, and it's all about intent. What is the intent of the Fascists, and what is the intent of Antifa?

so here in portland we have left wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing and right wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing. I don't favor any variety of centrist or middle ground LARPing, I think LARPing is stupid game with stupid prizes. That isn't being a "centrist"

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

When people who are protesting are condemned in the same breath as those who are committing crimes, is not the claim being made that protesting is a crime? Stop them when you stop the arsonists setting fires and the officers beating the protesters, all at once?

 

[uke2se]

so here in portland we have left wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing and right wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing. I don't favor any variety of centrist or middle ground LARPing, I think LARPing is stupid game with stupid prizes. That isn't being a "centrist"

Describing what's happening as "LARPing" is very 4-chan. Nobody is "LARPing". People are protesting very real fascists doing very real harm, and those very real fascists are hitting back.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Describing what's happening as "LARPing" is very 4-chan. Nobody is "LARPing". People are protesting very real fascists doing very real harm, and those very real fascists are hitting back.

People are also doing things like claiming to peacefully protest whilst also throwing bottles, rocks, fireworks at police; spitting at them during a pandemic; setting fires to public buildings with people inside. And, oh yeah, threatening to sexually assault police officers.

 

[uke2se]

People are also doing things like claiming to peacefully protest whilst also throwing bottles, rocks, fireworks at police; spitting at them during a pandemic; setting fires to public buildings with people inside. And, oh yeah, threatening to sexually assault police officers.

And the police are brutalizing people, including minors and journalists. How is any of this related to what I wrote?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You are a scorekeeper, you do it all the time, and I honestly don't understand the point of this exercise. Yes, the violent, racist and completely nutty right-wingers are far worse and far more dangerous. We all get that. For example:
Timothy McVeigh was also a revolutionary with an obsession for attacking a federal building and disregard for human lives inside and that is far far worse than these current events and revolutionaries and their attacks on the federal building and their relative disregard for the lives inside. What is happening now is far far tamer. What's your point exactly? When they light small fires inside the occupied building, they get a pass because it isn't a fertilizer bomb? Boog boys are worse than Antifa. Yes, but so what?

My point about score keeping is that he police response is very disproportionate and this clearly exposes a political element to policing. The cops are absolutely hysterical about the danger of liberal and left wing protesters, while downplaying (if not enabling) the danger of right wing street brawlers and militias.

Setting that aside, I'm curious what you want to see done here.

Nobody can accuse the PPB on being too permissive with these protests. They routinely declare unlawful assemblies, gas, beat, and arrest protesters, and yet the protests continue. How many more months must pass before Wheeler accepts that the police aren't going to be successful using police brutality to end protests about police brutality? There's no much room for police escalation short of lethal violence, and there's no indication that would even dissuade the crowds.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Timothy McVeigh was also a revolutionary with an obsession for attacking a federal building and disregard for human lives inside and that is far far worse than these current events and revolutionaries and their attacks on the federal building and their relative disregard for the lives inside. What is happening now is far far tamer. What's your point exactly? When they light small fires inside the occupied building, they get a pass because it isn't a fertilizer bomb? Boog boys are worse than Antifa. Yes, but so what?

It's about intent. You clearly don't like Antifa or their actions, and you claim not to like the Fascists that they are protesting. You are square in the middle, and like most centrists, are spending most of your time complaining about those on the left. However, there is a reason people keep telling you the Fascists are clearly who you should be worrying about, and it's all about intent. What is the intent of the Fascists, and what is the intent of Antifa?

so here in portland we have left wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing and right wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing. I don't favor any variety of centrist or middle ground LARPing, I think LARPing is stupid game with stupid prizes. That isn't being a "centrist"

And the police are brutalizing people, including minors and journalists. How is any of this related to what I wrote?

I can't speak for Portlandatheist. But I would tend to guess that he or she is saying that the acts of aggression and political theater (re: LARPing) on the part of one group don't justify those on the part of another.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I can't speak for Portlandatheist. But I would tend to guess that he or she is saying that the acts of aggression and political theater (re: LARPing) on the part of one group don't justify those on the part of another.

The police have revealed themselves to be highly biased executors of law and order. Their willingness to enable right wing criminal violence, in which they are clearly ideologically aligned, is a glaring contrast to the disproportionate response they mete out to anti-police protesters.

That's an underlying problem in all these police discussions. The police are corrupt in the most fundamental way. They see their state-granted authority as a tool to advance their own interests. In this context, it means beating the ever living **** out of police reform protesters.

The viciousness of their tactics, such as deliberately targeting people's heads with ballistic weapons, or targeting journalists for arrest and abuse, shows that this is very much a personal battle for the police department.

 

[lomiller]

People are also doing things like claiming to peacefully protest whilst also throwing bottles, rocks, fireworks at police; spitting at them during a pandemic; setting fires to public buildings with people inside. And, oh yeah, threatening to sexually assault police officers.

In the face of right wing authoritarians attempting to subvert democracy and establish a dictatorship, are those actions too aggressive or too weak? Context matters.

Also, what is to stop people who oppose that movement from going out and creating the violence themselves? If we accept the notion that a cause must be abandoned at any hint of violence, a tiny minority of opponents could squash any movement demanding social change, no matter how peaceful and popular.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The police have revealed themselves to be highly biased executors of law and order. Their willingness to enable right wing criminal violence, in which they are clearly ideologically aligned, is a glaring contrast to the disproportionate response they mete out to anti-police protesters.

That's an underlying problem in all these police discussions. The police are corrupt in the most fundamental way. They see their state-granted authority as a tool to advance their own interests. In this context, it means beating the ever living **** out of police reform protesters.

The viciousness of their tactics, such as deliberately targeting people's heads with ballistic weapons, or targeting journalists for arrest and abuse, shows that this is very much a personal battle for the police department.

Okay.

Now... why can't I condemn the actions of people setting fire to buildings that have other people trapped inside of them too?

 

[Emily's Cat]

You guys do know that portlandatheist has been very clearly supportive of the peaceful protesters and their complaint, right? Why can't s/he also be opposed to violence and aggression?

 

[Distracted1]

Okay.

Now... why can't I condemn the actions of people setting fire to buildings that have other people trapped inside of them too?

Because they are only using a hint of violence in their defense against right wing authoritarians attempting to subvert democracy and establish a dictatorship.

 

[lomiller]

My point about score keeping is that he police response is very disproportionate and this clearly exposes a political element to policing. The cops are absolutely hysterical about the danger of liberal and left wing protesters, while downplaying (if not enabling) the danger of right wing street brawlers and militias.

Setting that aside, I'm curious what you want to see done here.

Nobody can accuse the PPB on being too permissive with these protests. They routinely declare unlawful assemblies, gas, beat, and arrest protesters, and yet the protests continue. How many more months must pass before Wheeler accepts that the police aren't going to be successful using police brutality to end protests about police brutality? There's no much room for police escalation short of lethal violence, and there's no indication that would even dissuade the crowds.

There seems to be a weird disconnect with some people. For some reason police, who we should be expecting more from, are being given a pass while protestors fuelled by legitimate anger are being held to unrealistic expectations in order to justify authoritarian crackdowns.

Police are part of larger organizations that can be and are trained and lead to behave in a certain way. While there will still be one-offs and exceptions, we should EXPECT police to be peaceful and well behaved. If they don’t then it’s fair to hold the whole group accountable.

Conversely protests generally have no such training or leadership but fueled by legitimate anger can generally be expected to have a lot of people who end up behaving badly. This in no way diminishes the importance of what people are protesting about. If this is a licence to dismiss protests against legitimate injustice, then you are in effect supporting the creation of an unjust authoritarian regime.