Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

Delphic Oracle said:
Complaining about how unfair it is they dominate the coverage doesn’t work either. But then, an outright denunciation creates an inner rift within the movement because it chills those who wouldn't do it themselves, but wink at it.
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The significance of the Antifa misrepresentation isn't so much unfairness or exaggeration in media coverage.

It's the fact that so-called "Antifa" are the latest in a long line of fictionalized scapegoats used by the Right-Wing to deflect public attention away from solving the real, well-recognized issues; and to scare their base into toeing the party line. They have done this time and time again with:
* African-Americans
* Communists
* LGBT individuals
* Hippies
* "Welfare mothers"
* Drug addicts
* Muslims
* Immigrants

To name a token few. If we as a country are to move beyond being unable to so much as mount an effective response to a pandemic, let alone institute an effective health care system or solve longstanding criminal justice problems, it is imperative that the Right be held publicly accountable for their ********.
 
Shadowdweller said:
The significance of the Antifa misrepresentation isn't so much unfairness or exaggeration in media coverage.
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Does Antifa participate peacefully in protests?
As far as I know about their philosophy, peaceful protesting is not their tactic.

From what I have read and heard (from their own mouths) about their beliefs is that they believe in "preemptive self-defense" which allows them to come to a protest with violent intentions and think it is moral to do so to deter some anticipated "future" violence.

I'm not sure if the black-bloc is the same but they did the same things years ago with masks, weapons, fire, and projectiles. Same look, same MO. Europe and America. (recall the WTO protests in Seattle)

It could be the case that I have only seen the violent videos but I cannot find a large peaceful protest where Antifa showed up in good numbers and were not violent and/or destructive in their behavior. Can you?
 
Sherkeu said:
Does Antifa participate peacefully in protests?

As far as I know about their philosophy, peaceful protesting is not their tactic.



From what I have read and heard (from their own mouths) about their beliefs is that they believe in "preemptive self-defense" which allows them to come to a protest with violent intentions and think it is moral to do so to deter some anticipated "future" violence.



I'm not sure if the black-bloc is the same but they did the same things years ago with masks, weapons, fire, and projectiles. Same look, same MO. Europe and America. (recall the WTO protests in Seattle)



It could be the case that I have only seen the violent videos but I cannot find a large peaceful protest where Antifa showed up in good numbers and were not violent and/or destructive in their behavior. Can you?
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Well, you'll run into shifty rhetoric like "antifa isn't a group, it's an ideology" and "black bloc isn't a group, it's a tactic."

But my experience has been "it's the same people with different buzzwords this week."
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Well, you'll run into shifty rhetoric like "antifa isn't a group, it's an ideology" and "black bloc isn't a group, it's a tactic."

But my experience has been "it's the same people with different buzzwords this week."
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That's kinda the problem. It's always the same basic demographic, young people, usually white men, who think that they're "showing the man" by breaking the windows of Bank of America and the local Apple store - and who often end up trashing local businesses. In many ethnic enclaves, it's usually opportunistic young men who are pissed at the complete lack of opportunity - and corrupt police out of uniform who see an opportunity to profit.

Actual protest groups, who spend their time preparing medical supplies, contacting groups like the ACLU to alert lawyers and bail groups, ensuring leadership had no major risks (the Dallas Shooter had been kicked out of local activist groups due to his history of domestic violence, for example) despise this sort of thing. Police typically let them run wild, as it's good for their presser - like putting a tissue in a Starbucks order and calling it a tampon knowing that a lot of guys have no clue what one looks like, or the absurdity that became pointergate.
 
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Silly Green Monkey said:
If they're peaceful, the media isn't going to name them Antifa.
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But they ARE identifiable before any violence or destruction ensues- no matter if the media says so or not. They are all in black, backpacks, hidden weapons, masks (before Covid!), some with helmets and gasmasks as the ready. Nowadays they may have flak jackets or military looking wearables. They even have a flag though I havent seen it recently.

Has THAT group showed up to a large peaceful protest and not caused mayhem?
 
I frequently wear black because it's slimming, and I have a backpack. You can't tell from looking at me if I have a hidden weapon. It's weird, I've not been seeing many of the mask ads I saw before, because they were aimed at rightwingnut gun-toting counterculture and were flung into a terrible tailspin by masks going mainstream. All in black, helmets, gasmasks, military gear.....That's sounding more and more like that cop shot dead on the porch of another cop who wanted to shoot Antifa, and who is only being charged with manslaughter because he failed to correctly identify his target as a brother and not as the designated free-kill group...
 
Mumbles said:
That's kinda the problem. It's always the same basic demographic, young people, usually white men, who think that they're "showing the man" by breaking the windows of Bank of America and the local Apple store - and who often end up trashing local businesses. In many ethnic enclaves, it's usually opportunistic young men who are pissed at the complete lack of opportunity - and corrupt police out of uniform who see an opportunity to profit.
].
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Could you please clarify your last sentence? Only one dash, not 2 double dashes around “corrupt police out of uniform” means that I can’t tell if the police are an object or subject of the action. I don’t think you mean that the police are looting ethnic enclaves, do you?
 
Sherkeu said:
But they ARE identifiable before any violence or destruction ensues- no matter if the media says so or not. They are all in black, backpacks, hidden weapons, masks (before Covid!), some with helmets and gasmasks as the ready. Nowadays they may have flak jackets or military looking wearables. They even have a flag though I havent seen it recently.

Has THAT group showed up to a large peaceful protest and not caused mayhem?
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You know that is based on republican lies and propaganda right? The vast majority of antifa are just basic protesters and those who monitor white supremacist forums and communications.
 
ponderingturtle said:
You know that is based on republican lies and propaganda right? The vast majority of antifa are just basic protesters and those who monitor white supremacist forums and communications.
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Prior to Charlottesville, they had no specific agenda other than latching on to whatever was already being protested.

Since Charlottesville, hard to say since there hasn't been any other major points of civil unrest. They have had some tense stand-offs with BLM at times.

Since Charlottesville, there are lots of people who know nothing about antifa prior to Charlottesville who take the label proudly, but share almost none of the previous behavior patterns.
 
ponderingturtle said:
You know that is based on republican lies and propaganda right? The vast majority of antifa are just basic protesters and those who monitor white supremacist forums and communications.
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Not "antifa", which as much as Delphic Oracle may object really is just an ideology, even according to the FBI, the "black bloc anarchists", the clowns that actually show up to protests to cause problems.

Although it seems like, increasingly, these are just white supremacists and other far-right folks looking to cause trouble.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Prior to Charlottesville, they had no specific agenda other than latching on to whatever was already being protested.

Since Charlottesville, hard to say since there hasn't been any other major points of civil unrest. They have had some tense stand-offs with BLM at times.

Since Charlottesville, there are lots of people who know nothing about antifa prior to Charlottesville who take the label proudly, but share almost none of the previous behavior patterns.
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Their agenda before, during and after Charlottesville has been to oppose fascism by whatever means necessary. That's been true since the start. You must be thinking of people who aren't Antifa.
 
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uke2se said:
Their agenda before, during and after Charlottesville has been to oppose fascism by whatever means necessary. That's been true since the start. You must be thinking of people who aren't Antifa.
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I was responding to:

"The vast majority of antifa are just basic protesters and those who monitor white supremacist forums and communications."

As my history of interaction showed a clear contrast of behaviors between those identifying as antifa and a more generalized average protestor and no evidence of a specific stance on race issues or monitoring of hate channels online (in that era, that was more of an Anonymous thing).

Ferguson and the rise of BLM saw this new feature (not entirely new since glomming on to whatever is already going on is their most consistent stance). It has not been an entirely welcome partnership and standoffs and denouncements have gone both ways.

One of my favorites was chanting at a black man telling them to cool it "he's a cop."

ETA: in my mind, this is basically the kind of people who lead to the Committee of Public Safety and all that came with it. I can't tell you how many of them will spout quotes romanticizing a transitional period of violent terror from the early careers from Robspierre or others, seeming to miss how many of them were put to death to great celebration by their own movements.
 
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uke2se said:
Their agenda before, during and after Charlottesville has been to oppose fascism by whatever means necessary. That's been true since the start. You must be thinking of people who aren't Antifa.
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Was the stabbing of "Black Rebel" during the Portland protests by Antifa an example of opposing fascism?

ETA (the guy is completely crazy but that doesn't mean he should be stabbed)
 
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portlandatheist said:
Was the stabbing of "Black Rebel" during the Portland protests by Antifa an example of opposing fascism?

ETA (the guy is completely crazy but that doesn't mean he should be stabbed)
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Guess you're going to have to ask the person who did the stabbing. Do you think Antifa-ideology (anti-Fascism through any means) led him to stab that person?

ETA: Antifa isn't a person, so Antifa didn't stab anyone.
 
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Anyone have any definitive body count by protesters in support of BLM? The CHOP shooting comes to mind, and this stabbing.

We know for a fact that several killings have taken place by counter protesters, and the list of serious maiming by cops and counter protesters is quite long. Just by my quick assessment, it's quite clear that the protesters in the streets are the least violent of all the groups involved.

Just off the top of my head:

Boog boys arrested by feds in bombing plot out of Nevada
Boog boy kills federal security officers with illegal machine gun/silencer combo.
Albuquerque man assaults 3 and shoots one to defend the honor of a statue.
Portland Pipe bomber.
Numerous examples of deliberate maiming by police using rubber bullets
The National Guard guy facing a discharge for plotting to kill DC protesters, sharing plans on nazi social media
KKK leader driving car into protesters, recently convicted
Philly cop charged with aggravated battery on protester
Cop shoot fellow officer through door fearing antifa.
Buffalo cops crack old man's head


It seems by any objective matter, BLM protesters are the least dangerous group compared to cops or counter protesters.

I think more people have been blinded by cops shooting rubber bullets than the grand total of serious assaults or actual murders by BLM protesters.
 
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portlandatheist said:
Was the stabbing of "Black Rebel" during the Portland protests by Antifa an example of opposing fascism?

ETA (the guy is completely crazy but that doesn't mean he should be stabbed)
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Is there actually any evidence linking Hampe (i.e. the stabber) to Antifa? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that there is such a link... Of course, Duncomb (aka Black Rebel) might also possibly have his own ties to organizations that explicitly promote violence; have been doing things like...trolling the crowds outside the federal courthouse that are still protesting Trump's deployment of federal agents... with, for example, a giant we heart Trump sign; and have physically grabbed the guy and demanded to know what said individual was doing BEFORE being stabbed.
 
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