Richard Dawkins -- Islamophobia?

[Dissolution]

Yes, and? Why should we describe all Muslims by what some Muslims dress and look like? Would you say that you can identify Texans by the they dress, because some of them wear cowboy boots and cowboy hats?

I don't remember anybody saying that we should describe all Muslims by the way that some of them dress.
Could you point out where that's happened in this thread, please?

I note that you apparently have no problem talking about how Muslims (with no adjective) look and dress, but feel the need to specify Amish Christians and Hasidic Jews.

I also didn't have any problem saying Sikhs either, but you seem to have left that out for some reason.
I clearly used a qualifier (some Muslims), but no mention of any specific sect of Islam, as it's not relevant to dress trends, as far as I'm aware.
That's not the case with the Amish or with Hasidic Jews, is it?

Just to clarify, as you seem to be struggling with this, I'm not claiming that all Muslims do or should dress a certain way and I don't think anyone else on here is, either.
Some Muslims do dress in a way that indicates their faith, though.
I don't even think that's a controversial statement, so I have no idea why it seems to be upsetting you.

 

[Humes fork]

Oh, my! Speaking out on Twitter! He's right there on the front lines in the fight against FGM/C, getting his hands dirty, isn't he?

What do you expect him to do? Become a policeman?

 

[Axiom_Blade]

BTW, in case some people are thinking that "political correctness" isn't really that harmful after all, there's this story on Dawkins' website: "What happened when anti-FGM campaigner asked people in the street to sign a petition in favour of mutilating girls."

Leyla Hussein, 32, said many were scared to speak out against FGM because they were worried about criticising another culture.

She decided to conduct an experiment to see “how crazy political correctness has become” but was left in tears by the end.

Approaching shoppers with the petition supporting FGM, she told them she wanted to protect her “culture, traditions and rights”.

In only 30 minutes 19 people signed it with some saying they believed FGM was wrong but because it was part of Ms Hussein’s culture they would add their names. Only one person refused to sign.

Of course, Dawkins is the real bad guy here.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

Then again, considering her outspoken feminism and statements about privilege and hierarchies of power, maybe he sent her a mocking "Dear Muslimah" letter instead.

Nice red herring. I'm not biting.
It's nice to see where you're coming from, though.

 

[A'isha]

What do you expect him to do? Become a policeman?

http://www.dofeve.org/

http://www.stop-fgm-now.com/

http://www.endfgm.eu/en/

http://28toomany.org/

www.clitoraid.org/

http://www.ipu.org/PDF/publications/fgm08-e.pdf

http://www.fgmnationalgroup.org/

http://www.mayacentre.org.uk/dahlia-project-survivors-fgm/

http://www.forwarduk.org.uk/

http://orchidproject.org/

https://localgiving.com/charity/int...dication&utm_campaign=badge&utm_content=badge

http://www.equalitynow.org/fgm

http://www.jca.apc.org/~waaf/pages/english/english.html

http://www.f-risk.org/en/home.php

http://www.globalfundforwomen.org/impact/success-stories/62-general/2105-what-it-takes-to-end-fgm

http://www.stopexcision.net/

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/index.php

http://www.stopfgmkurdistan.org/

http://www.global-alliance-fgm.org/

 

[Craig B]

BTW, in case some people are thinking that "political correctness" isn't really that harmful after all, there's this story on Dawkins' website: "What happened when anti-FGM campaigner asked people in the street to sign a petition in favour of mutilating girls."



Of course, Dawkins is the real bad guy here.

I have to say I find it remarkable and dismaying that only a single person objected to signing this, and if it is true, that everyone else who was approached signed it, albeit with misgivings in a few cases. I'd like to learn more about this event. Are there other reports? Getting people to sign petitions is a complex process and this really needs some explanation in addition to, it's PC gone mad old chap, if indeed any other factor than that was in play.

 

[A'isha]

I have to say I find it remarkable and dismaying that only a single person objected to signing this, and if it is true, that everyone else who was approached signed it, albeit with misgivings in a few cases. I'd like to learn more about this event. Are there other reports? Getting people to sign petitions is a complex process and this really needs some explanation in addition to, it's PC gone mad old chap, if indeed any other factor than that was in play.

It was included in Leyla Hussein's documentary about FGM/C which was shown on Channel 4, "The Cruel Cut". You can watch it here.

Naturally, all Dawkins apparently cared about was the "political correctness gone mad!" angle of the story.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

I have to say I find it remarkable and dismaying that only a single person objected to signing this, and if it is true, that everyone else who was approached signed it, albeit with misgivings in a few cases. I'd like to learn more about this event. Are there other reports? Getting people to sign petitions is a complex process and this really needs some explanation in addition to, it's PC gone mad old chap, if indeed any other factor than that was in play.

Well, I haven't been able to get any more info on how the survey was conducted, but here's another article which sheds some more light on the issue.

The woman who did the survey was Leyla Hussein, one of the co-founders of Daughters of Eve, an activist group which fights against FGM. She herself was circumsized, and has "over 11 years of experience in working with women/girls who have undergone [FGM]".

Warning that politically correct attitudes could hamper the fight against FGM, Hussein added: 'FGM is not culture, it is violence.

'Stop using the culture word. This is happening to children. We are human beings, we can't watch children being cut, I don't care what culture you belong to.'

'It is incredible that UK citizens would sign a petition supporting child abuse,' Efua Dorkenoo, Advocacy Director of Equality Now's FGM Programme, told MailOnline.

'It’s time for everyone to stop worrying about being seen as racist or stepping on "cultural eggshells", when in reality, doing nothing to protect girls at risk of FGM is what is actually racist.'

Sound familiar?

Perhaps some people would be more willing to consider this opinion if it's not coming out of the mouth of Dawkins (who is considered a "privileged white male" to some on the left).

 

[A'isha]

The woman who did the survey was Leyla Hussein, one of the co-founders of Daughters of Eve, an activist group which fights against FGM.

Yes, along with Nimco Ali (who was also forced to undergo FGM/C as a child), who was mentioned and quoted in the article I linked above about fourth-wave feminism (which certainly provoked an interesting reaction when I posted it).

 

[Axiom_Blade]

Naturally, all Dawkins apparently cared about was the "political correctness gone mad!" angle of the story.

Okay. So, it was not what was said that was offensive, it was who said it. When Leyla Hussein says it, it's okay. When Dawkins says it, you swear at him, and take it as some kind of a personal attack.

Obviously, "political correctness gone mad" is not all Dawkins cares about, as several posters have already pointed out to you. He declaims FGM all the time. There are other articles about the topic on his site, such as

this one

and this one

Do you think Dawkins has an ulterior motive? Why do you think so, and what is it?

 

[A'isha]

Okay. So, it was not what was said that was offensive, it was who said it. When Leyla Hussein says it, it's okay. When Dawkins says it, you swear at him, and take it as some kind of a personal attack.

Because she's actively doing something about FGM/C, while Dawkins just posts abrasive comments to Twitter.

Obviously, "political correctness gone mad" is not all Dawkins cares about, as several posters have already pointed out to you. He declaims FGM all the time.

Oh, boy! With his rude tweets and aggressive and dismissive attitude towards anyone who doesn't think the same way he does about religion, FGM/C is sure to be eradicated any day now!

There are other articles about the topic on his site, such as

this one

and this one

Oh, my mistake! His slacktivism goes beyond making tweets to also cutting-and-pasting the occasional news item swiped from somewhere else on his website.

FGM/C practitioners, watch out! There's a new sheriff in town!

Do you think Dawkins has an ulterior motive? Why do you think so, and what is it?

I believe I've already explained what I think Dawkins is doing in my previous posts.

It's interesting, because some of these "fourth-wave feminists" have made it clear that they don't want Dawkins in their clubhouse, because he's a "privileged white male" (as Rebecca Watson put it).

Yet they're the ones devoting their time, money, and energy on ending FGM/C, while Dawkins does nothing but attack them.

And if Nimco Ali, a British-Somali woman who was forced to undergo FGM/C as a child, can be cognizant of her own privilege and make the effort to check it, Dawkins sure as **** can do the same.

The "Dear Muslima" comment makes me wonder if you've been listening to some of the Twitterati, who hate him for (IMO) very stupid and petty reasons.

No.

 

[SusanB-M1]

It was included in Leyla Hussein's documentary about FGM/C which was shown on Channel 4, "The Cruel Cut". You can watch it here.

Naturally, all Dawkins apparently cared about was the "political correctness gone mad!" angle of the story.

You really are very much anti Richard Dawkins, aren't you? Have you met him personally? Has he confided to you his thoughts, wishes and wants?

He is also in his 70s and, being in my late seventies, I think his continuing to work as he does instead of relaxing in retirement is admirable.

 

[Dissolution]

I'm not sure how much stock should be put into that survey, unfortunately. Some people will just sign up for anything, making poor assumptions about what they're agreeing with.
The infamous End Women's Suffrage petition illustrated that pretty well.

Leyla Hussein's work did draw attention to the issue though, so that's a positive.
The vast majority of people will be on the correct side of the fence on this one if they're aware of it.

 

[A'isha]

I'm not sure how much stock should be put into that survey, unfortunately. Some people will just sign up for anything, making poor assumptions about what they're agreeing with.
The infamous End Women's Suffrage petition illustrated that pretty well.

Leyla Hussein's work did draw attention to the issue though, so that's a positive.
The vast majority of people will be on the correct side of the fence on this one if they're aware of it.

I completely agree with you on all points here.

(Is this a first? )

 

[Cleon]

You really are very much anti Richard Dawkins, aren't you? Have you met him personally? Has he confided to you his thoughts, wishes and wants?

If Dawkins' thoughts, wishes, and wants were substantially different from his public statements and tweets, everyone would be rather surprised.

He is also in his 70s and, being in my late seventies, I think his continuing to work as he does instead of relaxing in retirement is admirable.

Not seeing the relevance here.

 

[Polaris]

I would say yes, that's a good idea. Choose words carefully when you're insulting over a billion people. Sounds smart to me.

Why? Their belief in a barbaric medieval cult doesn't prevent me from calling them on it.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Why? Their belief in a barbaric medieval cult doesn't prevent me from calling them on it.

Their diversity should prevent you from thinking you can say anything about them that applies to all of them. The best criticism is precise and accurate.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

Because she's actively doing something about FGM/C, while Dawkins just posts abrasive comments to Twitter.

Well, that isn't what it sounded like earlier, but I'm sorry for misunderstanding you.

I believe I've already explained what I think Dawkins is doing in my previous posts.

I looked over your previous posts, and it appears your whole problem is that "he is a *****". Okay, then. So, you don't like his attitude, and the way he says things. Join the club; it seems to be a large one. Isn't this what feminists call "tone policing"? I can understand hating somebody you don't know, based upon their politics. But hating them for the way they say things you agree with just seems childish, IMO.

And if Nimco Ali, a British-Somali woman who was forced to undergo FGM/C as a child, can be cognizant of her own privilege and make the effort to check it, Dawkins sure as **** can do the same.

What does Dawkins checking his privilege have to do with criticizing liberals and Islam?
Dawkins shouldn't criticize political correctness about FGM, until he has put in X hours fighting FGM?
Dawkins shouldn't talk about Islam, because he's a white guy?
When is he qualified to have opinions on these subjects?

 

[Craig B]

... Dawkins shouldn't talk about Islam, because he's a white guy? ...

As stated, there is a tendency among some people to use religion, and in particular Islam in places where where most of its adherents are recent immigrants or their near descendants, as a proxy for race.

 

[Humes fork]

As stated, there is a tendency among some people to use religion, and in particular Islam in places where where most of its adherents are recent immigrants or their near descendants, as a proxy for race.

Do you think it is the case with Dawkins?