Restoring Honor Rally 8/28

[Accidental Martyr]

So when the left-wingers actually showed Bush as Hitler in signs, well, it was a case of "dissent is the highest form of patriotism".

Now that the right-wingers do not show Obama as Hitler, you claim they committed the thoughtcrime of wanting to do it, and as we all know, once Obama was elected, dissent is no longer the highest form of patriotism -- it is now the highest form of racism.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DC_RALLY?SITE=KTVB&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Many in the crowd watched the proceedings on large television screens. On the edges of the Mall, vendors sold "Don't Tread on Me" flags, popular with tea party activists. Other activists distributed fliers urging voters "dump Obama." The pamphlet included a picture of the president with a Hitler-style mustache.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, some people think Obama's massive spending is a bad idea, and that the American ideal is one of a government takeover of industry to show them how to run things right -- as in General Motors -- being a bad idea. Or that a government that governs as little as possible, not as much as possible, is preferable. As for honor, there is thinking that As for honor, kowtowing to a bunch of dictators while threatening and ignoring friendly nations is not exactly honorable.

First, the initial bailouts were implemented before Bush left office. Second, Obama hasn't even spent it all yet. I wish he would. According to many leading economists, and according to history, we need the spending to get out of the recession. What is the point of giving more money (in the form of tax breaks) to the top with the imagined belief these folks will magically create jobs and wealth? THEY HAVE NO CUSTOMERS!!!.

It isn't more rich people we need. There is apparently a lot of liquidity in the bigest corporations. They could create jobs if they wanted to. What is stopping them? NO CUSTOMERS!!!!!!

We need the government to buy things, be it infrastructure or cash for clunkers or mortgage credits. Or give the tax breaks to all the CUSTOMERS!!!!, not to the rich people in hopes they will become employers.

The rich are already flush with cash. Lot of good that is doing anyone except themselves. They squeezed all the blood out of the workforce they could and now there are NO CUSTOMERS!!!

A specific example? Sure. "Government Motors", in line with its new view that ideology (in this case environmentalism) beats the market, produced the pathetic, overpriced Chevy Volt, a hybrid car that gets 40 miles (ooooooh!) on its electric motor, selling for $41,000 -- of which $7500 is a government rebate (that is, other people's tax money) for being politically correct in "protecting the environment" -- which, even after this rebate, has the space and performance of a $15,000 car. This seems in a slight violation of the tradition American belief in the free market, since to produce what people want to buy tends to produce this, while producing what the government thinks is good for them for ideological reasons tends to produce this.

(H'm -- come to think of it, I think the second car is a better choice according to "Government Motors" new ideology. It's smaller and takes less gas, thus protecting the environment; it doesn't cause so many accidents by driving too fast, showing how much you care about road safety; cheaper so that the working class can afford it, avoiding unwanted social polarization between rich and poor; and it has numerous other ideological advantages. Does anybody actually want to buy it? What are you, a racist or something?)

GM you say. Would that be the GM that Wiki says:

GM retains various stakes in different automakers. GM's best success internationally has been its performance in China, where GM's sales rose 66.9 percent in 2009, selling 1,830,000 vehicles and accounting for 13.4 percent of the market.[13]...

...GM officially ranks as the world’s second largest manufacturer as measured by OICA in 2009.[62]....

Don't we need exports? Especially exports to China that is currently sucking up our debt?

I say let's invest billions of our tax dollars in hybrids or any alternative to gas vehicles that have any promise whatsoever. Where should the money come from? Easy, put all the money we are currently putting into oil company subsidies into alternatives to oil.

Hey, if gas costs more, that is what the market is. Put the subsidies into anything but oil. How can all you free market believers totally ignore US government subsidies to the oil companies that are making the largest profits of any companies in history?

I could give some more examples.

Go for it. I'm up to the challenge.

You use words like "racist" not as descriptions, but a thought-stopping cliche against any argument you dislike or disagree with. You know, just like the only possible reason to oppose the GZ mosque is bigotry. Not that this is a one-way street: when Muslim thugs -- I mean "youths" -- stoned an Israeli dance group, you came to their defense. Politically incorrect opposition is "racism and bigotry"; politically correct racism and bigotry are "opposition".

You keep whining there are non-bigoted reasons to oppose the Islamic center 2 blocks from GZ. But you have not yet been able to say what those non-bigoted reasons are, including now in this post. Just explain to us the non-condemning of all Muslims for the actions of 20 or so of them that you are talking about. It's that simple, Skeptic. But you cannot do it.

As for some stoning incident I've never heard of you claim I came to the defense of, you have me mixed up with someone else. I condemn both the Israelis for their part in the conflict, and the Palestinians especially for raising their kids to continue the conflict. But the minute any person dare call Israel on their contribution to the problem very few of you right-wingers can see anything else that person posts.

 

[SezMe]

If you can list the equivalent specific actions Obama has undertaken, I'd have a different view of the criticism of Obama calling him dangerous and a socialist and depicting him as Hitler. Has Obama reversed all of Bush's damage as fast as I'd like to see it reversed? No. But tell me what Obama has initiated that is anything close to the scale Bush damaged this country.

I don't support the assertion that Obama is a socialist but your argument here is weak...at best. Why should we judge Obama on what policies he has initiated rather than those he has continued from Bush II?

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

"Stealth" being the operative word here -- namely, "something I've got little to no evidence for".

I've heard Obama is s stealth Muslim. I've got no evidence, but he's a stealth Muslim, so what did you expect?

No, "stealth" does not mean I have no evidence. "Stealth" means they're portraying themselves as one thing (a grass roots political movement), but in reality may be another (a religious movement shoehorning itself into power through politics).

To reiterate, I'm not convinced of this, I just have growing suspicions base mostly on their own rhetoric. I could be convinced otherwise, but your counterargument that "Obama is a stealth Muslim" = "The Tea Party is a stealth Christian Supremacist movement" is unhelpful.

If you -- or anyone -- has a better counterargument, I want to hear it. I'd genuinely like to be disabused of the idea if it's demonstrably false.

 

[Skeptic]

a distance longer than the daily commute for 75% of Americans,[5] whose average commute is 33 miles (53 km).

(Laughing)

Yeah, because when I buy a car, what I want from it is to have a range seven miles longer than what the average citizen drives in a day before it stops dead and has to be recharged all night! Because, you know, nobody ever drives more than that on average, or wants to take a trip somewhere, or wants to go to another store on the way home, or has to give junior a lift unexpectedly, or is stuck in traffic, or has the battery's efficiency go down with age...

Besides, playing will-this-lemon-die-on-me-in-the-middle-of-the-highway? as you enter the last few miles of its generous 40-mile limit is FUN and EXCITING, as happens to you when you forget to fill your car's tank and are driving looking for a gas station when the damn Needle has been on "E" for the last 20 minutes. Have no excitement in your life? Want to live on the edge? Buy a Volt. Only this time with no gas stations, as it can only be charged from the grid using an electric cable all night. Damn. (Why, yes, you could then use the -- bleeeech -- fossil-fuel gobbling environment-killing regular engine, but that sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?).

It makes sense, though, that the car also only seats four and has about the same performance of a car costing 1/3 as much. After all, the average family size in the US is now only 3.14 (presumably since single people are considered "families" for this purpose). Clearly thinking about having room for five or six people is ridiculous overkill. Who asked you to want more than the average! Shame on you! Nobody's ever going to want to, you know, give grandma and grandpa a lift anywhere, or arrange a trip with friends, or other crazy activities that grossly violate the "average number of people in a car" rule.

Yes, the Volt is going to a big hit, I'm sure -- just like the projects, which were planned around the idea of how much space, air, light, etc. an average family needs. It was scientific! It used all the statistics! Whaddaya mean, the result was a hellhole? What are you, a racist or something?

 

[JihadJane]

Depends on how you define 'cry'.

All week, he's been in and out of the tremulous voice.

I don't recall any tears, however.

Apparently his eyes have become immune to onions.

 

[DC]

sounds like Sceptic was forced to buy a Volt.

 

[bit_pattern]

^^ That's socialism for ya!

 

[JihadJane]

James Howard Kunstler on "restoring honor":

"Glenn Beck's sidekick nowadays, Sarah Palin, is exactly the kind of corn pone Hitler that America deserves: a badly-educated, child-like, war-mongering opportunist easily manipulated by backstage extremist billionaires who think they don't have enough money yet. Sarah Palin is going to run for president in 2012. In the process she'll turn the sad remnants of the Republican party into a suicide cult, but she might just get elected and you can kiss the 230-year-long experiment in representative government goodbye for good."


http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/08/one-lump-or-two.html#more

 

[Lurker]

Depends on how you define 'cry'.

All week, he's been in and out of the tremulous voice.

I don't recall any tears, however.

On his way to the rally, Beck discovered at the Walgreens that he had left his credit card at home. The dejected Beck placed the Vicks Vapor Rub back on the shelf.

 

[Lurker]

(Besides, playing will-this-lemon-die-on-me-in-the-middle-of-the-highway? as you enter the last few miles of its generous 40-mile limit is FUN and EXCITING, as happens to you when you forget to fill your car's tank and are driving looking for a gas station when the damn Needle has been on "E" for the last 20 minutes. Have no excitement in your life? Want to live on the edge? Buy a Volt. Only this time with no gas stations, as it can only be charged from the grid using an electric cable all night. Damn. (Why, yes, you could then use the -- bleeeech -- fossil-fuel gobbling environment-killing regular engine, but that sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?).

(...)

Don't forget paying about twice what one would expect to pay for a normal "commute" car. Hey, I love the idea of an electric car for my commute but there is no way on God's green earth that I would pay over twice what I would pay for the gas car. I ran the numbers for my lengthy commute (I would be the target consumer for this car as my commute is just over 30 miles each way) and I calculated a break even point of 14 years and that does not account for the cost of the electricity but does include the time value of money.

14 years? I am abnormal in that I keep my cars longer than the average consumer but the longest I have kept a car is 12 years.

Sorry, if the Volt does not come down in price it will be relegated to consumers who "want to make a difference", not to cost conscious ones.

 

[Ducky]

(Laughing)

Yeah, because when I buy a car, what I want from it is to have a range seven miles longer than what the average citizen drives in a day before it stops dead and has to be recharged all night! Because, you know, nobody ever drives more than that on average, or wants to take a trip somewhere, or wants to go to another store on the way home, or has to give junior a lift unexpectedly, or is stuck in traffic, or has the battery's efficiency go down with age...

Besides, playing will-this-lemon-die-on-me-in-the-middle-of-the-highway? as you enter the last few miles of its generous 40-mile limit is FUN and EXCITING, as happens to you when you forget to fill your car's tank and are driving looking for a gas station when the damn Needle has been on "E" for the last 20 minutes. Have no excitement in your life? Want to live on the edge? Buy a Volt. Only this time with no gas stations, as it can only be charged from the grid using an electric cable all night. Damn. (Why, yes, you could then use the -- bleeeech -- fossil-fuel gobbling environment-killing regular engine, but that sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?).

It makes sense, though, that the car also only seats four and has about the same performance of a car costing 1/3 as much. After all, the average family size in the US is now only 3.14 (presumably since single people are considered "families" for this purpose). Clearly thinking about having room for five or six people is ridiculous overkill. Who asked you to want more than the average! Shame on you! Nobody's ever going to want to, you know, give grandma and grandpa a lift anywhere, or arrange a trip with friends, or other crazy activities that grossly violate the "average number of people in a car" rule.

Yes, the Volt is going to a big hit, I'm sure -- just like the projects, which were planned around the idea of how much space, air, light, etc. an average family needs. It was scientific! It used all the statistics! Whaddaya mean, the result was a hellhole? What are you, a racist or something?

Really? That's all you're going to address of my post?

Ok well when you're done with your gotcha-type snark let me know when you want to talk about the rest of the points I made.

(Did you miss where the volt has a 300 mile total range?)

 

[Denver]

Overall, I think Beck's "non-partisan" strategy has now been to say things are not about politics, and to jump way into the religious stuff. (Seriously, listen to his radio show sometime. If you didn't know it, you'd think you were listen to religious radio).

And now that it's about religion, he can say it's really about light vs darkness, good vs evil.

Guess who he says is on the dark side?

And so, it becomes political again: just wrapped in religiosity.

 

[dudalb]

Yes, I agree.

An interesting similarity is found in this article.

It's a bit like the so-called "million man march". Farrakhan is a disgusting loon, but his message during the actual march was -- for a change -- not racist, but one about self-responsibility and self-reliance. Most people who came to the march wanted and expected to hear that, not his zionist-UFO-conspiracy nonsense.

Still, I 100% agree that they should find someone else to give the message.In the case of both marches one is thinking, "well, that's very nice, but why choose this guy to tell it?"

What I found upsetting about Beck's speech at the Rally was the whole "America is turning back to God" routine. No place for those who are skeptics about Religon in Glenn Beck's America. And probably no place for those who are not "Christians". (Leave out whether Mormons are Christians or not for the moment). Beck used general terms like "God", but you know damn well what he meant. A tactic of the religous right is to never openly invoke Jesus at a political event before a general audience, but with a Wink Wink Nudge Nudge about who is really meant.
I am not a militant secluarist , but I am convinced that Government mated to a specific theology,whether officially or unofficially is an absolute horror. WHich is why I am so opposed to the religious right.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't support the assertion that Obama is a socialist but your argument here is weak...at best. Why should we judge Obama on what policies he has initiated rather than those he has continued from Bush II?

For one, because what is needed to extract the county from Bush's damage is unclear. How for example is Obama supposed to end 2 wars abruptly? As for the Gitmo prisoners, now we have the problem of men, one, if they were innocent, now changed from years of incarceration and isolation, and two, if they weren't innocent they should have been left in the countries they were arrested in, but now it is harder to send them back.

As for the surveillance, I don't know what Obama is yet doing with that program but I don't see evidence he has yet gone after reporters' communication lines in order to discover the ID of whistleblowers of purely politically embarrassing information.

And regardless of which Bush programs Obama has continued, it is only a fraction of the programs that damaged this country.

I'm waiting to see what the Obama government's response to the oil spill finally results in. So far we have the press exclaiming things are real bad. But there are few ruined beaches, not so much dead wildlife, and evidence some bacteria are eating the oil. If over the next couple years we find the oil really did devastate large areas of the Gulf, then we can accuse Obama of at least incompetence if not indifference.

But over the last week or so the news has been filled with reruns of people waiting for something as simple as water for a week after Katrina. Bush's incompetence (in delegating and acting) after Katrina was horrendous. It is even more appalling to see now and ask why the government couldn't have at a minimum delivered water and MREs within 72 hours to the thousands of people trapped in New Orleans.



I brought up the fact Obama hasn't reversed all of Bush's damage immediately to head of the anticipated claim that always comes up claiming if Bush was so bad, why is Obama still involved in Iraq and Afghanistan, why the surveillance still going on and why isn't Gitmo closed? There's no way you can say Obama is really Bush 2.

 

[thatguywhojuggles]

Guess who he says is on the dark side?

Bill Compton?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Apparently his eyes have become immune to onions.

This time of year onions are sweeter. It's harder to find the more pungent varieties.

 

[dudalb]

James Howard Kunstler on "restoring honor":

"Glenn Beck's sidekick nowadays, Sarah Palin, is exactly the kind of corn pone Hitler that America deserves: a badly-educated, child-like, war-mongering opportunist easily manipulated by backstage extremist billionaires who think they don't have enough money yet. Sarah Palin is going to run for president in 2012. In the process she'll turn the sad remnants of the Republican party into a suicide cult, but she might just get elected and you can kiss the 230-year-long experiment in representative government goodbye for good."


http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/08/one-lump-or-two.html#more

James Howard Kunstler is ,frankly,not too different from Glenn Beck, except he is on the other side of the political spectrum. He is a militant Luddite, and general purpose fear monger, and an advocate a return to subsistence farming.

 

[Pardalis]

After 9/11, Bush had thousands of Muslims rounded up and deported.

Come again?

 

[Pardalis]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DC_RALLY?SITE=KTVB&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

And?

Ever been to an anti-war protest in the 2000's? Comparisons between Bush and Hitler and Israel with Nazi Germany were rampant, and still are.