Respecting Christians

[Minarvia]

Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
Again, from my personal experience, using my late father as an example, do you think it is wrong of me to have not respected or honoured him when he made no pretense of his feelings about women? About how he would ogle young girls with his snide remarks of "if they are old enough to bleed they are old enough to butcher," and countless other awful "beliefs" he had?
No.

Thank you; I thought not, but I have been feeling guilty ever since he died. But then I think about it and realise that I simply could not have truly respected him no matter how much I could have tried.

Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
Yes, he was nice enough most of the time to me. He fed me and provided for me, but I could never shake what I knew he believed. Goodness knows I tried for many years.
This is the absolute, rock bottom minimum that anyone should expect from a parent.

That is true. He had a duty, at the very least, to do that.

Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
So, was I supposed to just respect him for his behaviour alone and ignore his beliefs regarding myself, my mother, and all women?
Again, no, he didn't deserve your respect.

Thank you for understanding. In Avalon's view of what this thread is about, I began to question whether my lack of respect was wrong. And I do know that a person can "show" respect, but that is not the same as truly respecting the other person. Now, my father had his very hateful faults, and for the most part the religious people I know aren't hateful, altho some are. The ones who are not, however, I don't respect as much as I would like because I cannot wrap my head around the concept of someone believing in fairy tales and superstitions. However, I do respect them more than the hate monger groups who despise atheists or anyone not of their "faith." At least my father had one decent redeeming factor in my eyes; he was an atheist!


Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
So, seriously, was I wrong to NOT respect and honour my father?
No, you were not wrong.

I'm so glad you said all this. I'm sorry to be so late in responding! I really appreciate all you've said because I've felt guilt for years over my feelings regarding my father.

So, this thread is interesting, but there will still be differences of opinion on who one can respect and who one cannot or will not. I suppose different situations and different sorts of people factor into this and there is no clear cut answer.

 

[dafydd]

necrophiliac that could play a good game of scrabble, but I still wouldn't respect him.

Some people believe that other human beings are sub-human beacuse of their skin colour, or because they are jewish. I cannot respect these people no matter what other qualities they might posess.

Respect has to be earned. i find it hard to respect people who believe in imaginary beings. I get along with them ( I know a couple of Celtic Paganists] but I cannot respect their beliefs.

 

[Minarvia]

Respect has to be earned. i find it hard to respect people who believe in imaginary beings. I get along with them ( I know a couple of Celtic Paganists] but I cannot respect their beliefs.

I know someone who told me that he refuses to marry anyone who does not share his faith, because his faith is the single most important thing in his life. He's 46 and a virgin. I feel bad for him, but I cannot respect him either, at least not very much, because he is over ten years old and believes so much in a huge sky fairy that he is living a lonely and frustrated life. Very sad.

 

[Legend]

No, I just do not believe in any form of sky-daddy. It's called being an atheist.

I'll take that as a "yes".

Once you obtain said clue, go back and start the thread over again then revise your post first post to me.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Multivac]

I'll take that as a "yes".

Once you obtain said clue, go back and start the thread over again then revise your post first post to me.

Thank you for your time.

Right. My first post to you was in response to post #45. These are the four passages of your post I quoted, along with my responses:

That's still semantic dodging. Disbelief is naturally a sin, atheism is therefore a sinful behaviour.

Of course it isn't.

I've adumbrated why it's repulsive and it's a very simple deductive proposition by now. As far as I'm concerned, excuse the accusation, but you're doing the whole Socratic irony thing and pretending that you don't understand what is so fundamentally abhorrent about finding eternal suffering to be a just result of anything one does on this Earth.

It is fundamentally abhorent that a so-called god will inflict eternal punishment on anyone. What right would such an entity have to torment anyone?

You can say you don't want me to suffer, which very well might contradict a few biblical passages (one of which I mentioned in the OP), but you can't say it's the wrong choice otherwise you'll be disagreeing with your god's divine judgement.

You may have a god but I do not.

Fair point, but it makes the whole thing a little sinuous. The Bible dictates that we'll be off to Hell because disbelief is a sin and sin will send you to hell (or because we aren't "saved" by Jesus, however you want to put it), and because that is God's judgement, it is just and we deserve it; in fact, all of humanity deserves it because we are inherently sinners.

Hell does not exist. God does not exist.

I have highlighted the same areas as in my post #323.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to point out which clue I missed. Is it that you think I have mistaken you for a believer? If so, you are mistaken.

My points can be put very simply: I do not believe in god, therefore I do not believe in sin. It follows from this that I cannot agree with the statement "Disbelief is naturally a sin". From this premise, it follows that I would not agree with the idea of punishing someone for their actions by inflicting eternal suffering.

Thankyou for your time.

 

[dafydd]

If atheism is a sin, and if this god does exists and if this god created me as I am then why would he punish me for being an atheist? This god fella is supposed to be be omniscient so he would have known that I was going to be an atheist so what has he got to bitch about? And how is he going to deal with all the Hindus, Jains etc?

 

[Legend]

Perhaps you would be kind enough to point out which clue I missed. Is it that you think I have mistaken you for a believer? If so, you are mistaken.

Then your response to me is entirely stupid. "You may have a god but I do not." <-- Your words.

What is the purpose of your presence in this discussion if all you're interested in doing is asserting your atheism? Regardless of who is ultimately right regarding the origins of the universe, the point stands that believers tacitly condone my eternal suffering.

Please stick to the topic or stop wasting my time with your atheism pride parade.

 

[dafydd]

Then your response to me is entirely stupid. "You may have a god but I do not." <-- Your words.

What is the purpose of your presence in this discussion if all you're interested in doing is asserting your atheism? Regardless of who is ultimately right regarding the origins of the universe, the point stands that believers tacitly condone my eternal suffering.

Please stick to the topic or stop wasting my time with your atheism pride parade.

And that is supposed to encourage me to respect believers? I am not proud or ashamed to be an atheist, I just am one. If anyone shows me concrete proof of the existence of an all-powerful creator god then I will stop being an atheist.

 

[GeeMack]

Perhaps you would be kind enough to point out which clue I missed. Is it that you think I have mistaken you for a believer? If so, you are mistaken.

There appears to be a fundamental problem with Legend's understanding of simple English terms like "yes" and "no"...

No, I just do not believe in any form of sky-daddy. It's called being an atheist.

I'll take that as a "yes".

Given the obvious difficulty in understanding two of the simplest words in the language, more difficult concepts like "clue" and "believer" and "mistaken" may be impossible to grasp.

 

[dafydd]

Legend, why did you take that no as a yes? I don't believe in sky daddies either, due to lack of evidence. Does that mean that you believe that I do believe in gods?

 

[Legend]

And that is supposed to encourage me to respect believers? I am not proud or ashamed to be an atheist, I just am one. If anyone shows me concrete proof of the existence of an all-powerful creator god then I will stop being an atheist.

What the hell has any of that got to do with anything? We're all perfectly aware of your position now, thank you for telling us about it all over again.

Where have you pulled the idea that I'm trying to tell you to respect believers? I'm doing the exact opposite. Did anyone even read the OP?

I'm not the enemy, champ. We're on the same side, stop embarrassing yourself.

There appears to be a fundamental problem with Legend's understanding of simple English terms like "yes" and "no"...

​

Given the obvious difficulty in understanding two of the simplest words in the language, more difficult concepts like "clue" and "believer" and "mistaken" may be impossible to grasp.

Actually, no, given that Multivac is making about as much sense as Pikachu on amphetamines, I think his "no" was the mistake.

Do you agree that if Person A incorrectly believes that Person B is black and proceeds to insult him because of his race, that Person A is exempt from the title of a racist because Person B is actually Asian? Or are you sane? That's the position you're defending, old boy. Good luck to ya.

 

[dafydd]

What the hell has any of that got to do with anything? We're all perfectly aware of your position now, thank you for telling us about it all over again.

Where have you pulled the idea that I'm trying to tell you to respect believers? I'm doing the exact opposite.

Then you are going about it in a very odd way. I'm glad we're on the same side.

 

[dafydd]

What the hell has any of that got to do with anything? We're all perfectly aware of your position now, thank you for telling us about it all over again.

Where have you pulled the idea that I'm trying to tell you to respect believers? I'm doing the exact opposite. Did anyone even read the OP?

I'm not the enemy, champ. We're on the same side, stop embarrassing yourself.



Actually, no, given that Multivac is making about as much sense as Pikachu on amphetamines, I think his "no" was the mistake.

Do you agree that if Person A incorrectly believes that Person B is black and proceeds to insult him because of his race, that Person A is exempt from the title of a racist because Person B is actually Asian? Or are you sane? That's the position you're defending, old boy. Good luck to ya.

Which race is person A?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

I'm pretty sure Legend is just arguing from the Christian context, in which god and sin are assumed to exist and disbelief most certainly is one. Even though they don't, and it isn't, it's what Christians believe and so often has a significant effect on their relationships with heathens.

 

[Legend]

Person A is Caucasian and lives in a nice two-bedroom apartment in Miami. He enjoys origami and French cinema, and has a slight stutter.

I'm pretty sure Legend is just arguing from the Christian context, in which god and sin are assumed to exist and disbelief most certainly is one. Even though they don't, and it isn't, it's what Christians believe and so often has a significant effect on their relationships with heathens.

Thank you. I was beginning to understand why I refused to visit this area of the forum for so long. Some people have the most irrelevant agendas.

 

[dafydd]

Person A is Caucasian and lives in a nice two-bedroom apartment in Miami. He enjoys origami and French cinema, and has a slight stutter.

He doesn't sound like a racist to me.

 

[Legend]

Yep, in the same way the local vet doesn't seem like the sort of bloke who subscribes to a religion that believes you deserve eternal punishment.

 

[dafydd]

Thank you. I was beginning to understand why I refused to visit this area of the forum for so long. Some people have the most irrelevant agendas.

No, you don't like it because it forces you to actually think about your religious beliefs. I didn't become an atheist by accident.

 

[Legend]

No, you don't like it because it forces you to actually think about your religious beliefs.

Don't flatter yourself. All you've done is proclaim your atheism, mistake my position completely, and say absolutely nothing of substance. Now you dodge the racism parallel I proposed with a lame quip, so I'm left to wonder what, exactly, you are doing here.

Tell me, do you take to discussions about fictional characters' motivations with the intention of sitting on the middle of the discussion with a big sign reading "FAKE!" while screaming the words, "Darth Vader isn't even real, idiots"?

 

[dafydd]

Don't flatter yourself. All you've done is proclaim your atheism, mistake my position completely, and say absolutely nothing of substance. Now you dodge the racism parallel I proposed with a lame quip, so I'm left to wonder what, exactly, you are doing here.

Tell me, do you take to discussions about fictional characters' motivations with the intention of sitting on the middle of the discussion with a big sign reading "FAKE!" while screaming the words, "Darth Vader isn't even real, idiots"?

So you are not religious? You are only pretending?