Respecting Christians

[westprog]

Were it most anyone else, I would patiently explain why the assumptions implicit in their questions are invalid, and how this implies hidden accusations I'm sure they didn't intend. However, in the past you have demonstrated ample enough intelligence to recognize flaws in your own arguments, and ample enough closed-mindedness to use them anyway, so I will simply choose not play along with your feigned innocence.

The question is whether the Creeds - Apostle's, Nicene, Athanasian - can be considered default Christian belief, particularly regarding damnation. I argue they can be, on the basis that even the most obscure, Athanasian, is officially subscribed to by the sects of the great majority of Christianity.

Yes, and you delicately skirted the issue of whether it was the concept of damnation per se that concerned you, or the fact that atheists might be considered automatically damned. I wanted to make sure that you were explicit. I've noticed that any attempt at such precision is regarded as duplicitous. However, my sympathy would be greater had you not started to call people retarded for disagreeing with you - albeit in a Pickwickian sense.

 

[cj.23]

I'm sorry you feel offended, but my answer is no. I'm a firm advocate that the best way to defang hurtful terms is to coopt their meaning into something else. Anything else will do, so long as it doesn't share the same context.

(snip lots more)

Fair enough - an intelligent reasoned case. I'm not offended, just found the use of the term as a perjorative distasteful. Still you are right, language changes, and yes you can certainly co-opt hateful terms and use them positively. Good argument

cj x

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Yes, and you delicately skirted the issue of whether it was the concept of damnation per se that concerned you, or the fact that atheists might be considered automatically damned.

Well, Delvo's comment meriting your sarcastic response about assuming what Christians believe was this:

Thinking that someone deserves eternal torture is not respectful.

That would be the former of your choices, I think.

Although it's neither here nor there since what I think does not influence what Christians believe, as for what concerns me personally, I take umbrage to the notion that anyone should be tortured for any reason whatsoever. Call me a softie.

 

[cj.23]

The question is whether the Creeds - Apostle's, Nicene, Athanasian - can be considered default Christian belief, particularly regarding damnation. I argue they can be, on the basis that even the most obscure, Athanasian, is officially subscribed to by the sects of the great majority of Christianity.

I would answer

a) yes, probably, for most Churches, the first two, and the Athanasian Creed is accepted by Roman Catholics, Lutherans, most Anglicans and some other churches I think. IT's quite late though, and lacks the authority of the other two.

and b) where do any of them discuss damnation, eternal or otherwise? I think the Athanasian Creed makes reference to death - "Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly"meaning to be denied Eternal Life - sure.Nothing on Hell or damnation though?

I could have missed the references, but I'm not seeing them right now.

And Westprog, cheers. I'm used to being told I'm not a True Christian as I don't accept some fundie literalist agenda that people who don't hold my religion insist it is comprised of. I'm kind of amused by it now, but if pointing out there was no Bible for 5%+ of Christian history does not make any difference, well I doubt much will.

cj x

cj x

 

[westprog]

That would be the former of your choices, I think.

I would have taken that as implying that it was disrespectful to the person assumed to be damned, but I'm sure that Delvo could clarify that personally.

If there are people who think that it's wrong-headed to think that Hitler, to give the quintessential example, would be permanently separated from God - well, they are quite entitled to do so. What they aren't entitled to do is to assume that their Christian neighbour believes that they are damned for atheism, and is OK with that.

 

[Legend]

Sure - arising spontaneously or from an obscure or unknown cause.

Oh how clever.

As you well know, I was referring to the fact that not all that long ago it was a technical term synonymous with "retarded".

 

[Beelzebuddy]

and b) where do any of them discuss damnation, eternal or otherwise? I think the Athanasian Creed makes reference to death - "Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly"meaning to be denied Eternal Life - sure.Nothing on Hell or damnation though?

I could have missed the references, but I'm not seeing them right now.

It's in the bit at the end:

He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

 

[cj.23]

It's in the bit at the end:

That's pretty unpleasant stuff, cheers for pointing it out! I checked the 39 Articles and the Anglican Communion accepts the Nicene and Apostles Creed, but no mention is made of the Athanasian one - I know it is not common in Eastern Orthodoxy either.

I always thought there was one of the 39 Articles mentioning eternal punishment - I'm looking for it right now. http://anglicansonline.org/basics/thirty-nine_articles.html so I can disagree with it.

I guess i'm going ot have to go read what the Catholic magisterium has to say on hellfire. In case you have not guessed, I don't believe in it,and find the concept rather bizarre: but I don't blame anyone for thinking it likely I do, given my Christianity. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and all that.

 

[dafydd]

That's pretty unpleasant stuff, cheers for pointing it out! I checked the 39 Articles and the Anglican Communion accepts the Nicene and Apostles Creed, but no mention is made of the Athanasian one - I know it is not common in Eastern Orthodoxy either.

I always thought there was one of the 39 Articles mentioning eternal punishment - I'm looking for it right now. http://anglicansonline.org/basics/thirty-nine_articles.html so I can disagree with it.

I guess i'm going ot have to go read what the Catholic magisterium has to say on hellfire. In case you have not guessed, I don't believe in it,and find the concept rather bizarre: but I don't blame anyone for thinking it likely I do, given my Christianity. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and all that.

Does it matter? It's all a fantasy, like all religions.

 

[cj.23]

Does it matter? It's all a fantasy, like all religions.

At the risk of wandering off topic, how do you know this to be true?

cj x

 

[AvalonXQ]

At the risk of wandering off topic, how do you know this to be true?

cj x

It's dafydd's only topic.

In every single thread discussing religion, regardless of the aspects or nuances of the topic, he drops by just to remind everyone that he's an atheist. It's his only "contribution" to these topics. I would recommend not allowing him to derail the conversation with it.

 

[Legend]

Bugger it. Edited. Continue.

 

[dafydd]

At the risk of wandering off topic, how do you know this to be true?

cj x

Which religion is not a fantasy.? They can't all be true.

 

[cj.23]

Which religion is not a fantasy.? They can't all be true.

Which model of Evolution in 1860 was true? Lamarck's, Darwin's, Chamber's? None, but all contained elements of a fundamental truth. Human religion may be a fractured approach to a reality. It's when you stop regarding it as provisional and a work in progress you hit a problem.

cj x

 

[dafydd]

Which model of Evolution in 1860 was true? Lamarck's, Darwin's, Chamber's? None, but all contained elements of a fundamental truth. Human religion may be a fractured approach to a reality. It's when you stop regarding it as provisional and a work in progress you hit a problem.

cj x

Evolution does not require a variation of a mythical sky daddy/daddies/mummy/mummies. Evolution is a part of reality, gods are not.

 

[cj.23]

Evolution does not require a variation of a mythical sky daddy/daddies/mummy/mummies. Evolution is a part of reality, gods are not.

How do you know that? If by reality you mean phenomena within the universe, sure. However a super-natural entity could exist outside the universe - it's what supernatural means after all, above or beyond Nature, that is ye olde space/time we inhabit? If a character in Grand Theft Auto 4 was conscious, how would it now if the simulation it inhabits had a programmer? It could observe the natural laws, make predictions, perform good Popperian science in that it could falsify predicted hypotheses, construct a pretty good physics of it's world - but that would not mean the mYthical Programmers do not exist.

Anyhow, respecting Christians is as dumb as respecting any other group, unless that group is defined as "people who are worthy of respect" in my opinion

cj x

 

[dafydd]

How do you know that? If by reality you mean phenomena within the universe, sure. However a super-natural entity could exist outside the universe - it's what supernatural means after all, above or beyond Nature, that is ye olde space/time we inhabit? If a character in Grand Theft Auto 4 was conscious, how would it now if the simulation it inhabits had a programmer? It could observe the natural laws, make predictions, perform good Popperian science in that it could falsify predicted hypotheses, construct a pretty good physics of it's world - but that would not mean the mYthical Programmers do not exist.

Anyhow, respecting Christians is as dumb as respecting any other group, unless that group is defined as "people who are worthy of respect" in my opinion

cj x

I have never seen any proof that would change that could into a does. I could be surrounded by invisible dancing gnomes at the moment, how do you know that is not true?

 

[cj.23]

I have never seen any proof that would change that could into a does. I could be surrounded by invisible dancing gnomes at the moment, how do you know that is not true?

1. Sweep a broom around violently, and see if any invisible gnomes crash in to the walls. Set up some glass bottles outside the range of the broom - the gnomes should be knocked in to them.

2. Having created by part 1 a gnome free space, and established none are about, exclude drafts, sit still, and place candles around you. If dancing gnomes approach the candles will flicker violently as the gnomish dance displaces air.

3. If the candles flickering suggest gnomes are dancing near by, take a can of aerosol paint, and spray the area (you may wish to do this outdoors). The gnomes should become visible as paint adheres to them) - but be careful not to spray the candles and blow yourself up, obviously.

4. Hit the now visible gnome with your broom, and having stunned it place it in a basket for further scientific study.

This should work I think?

cj x

 

[dafydd]

1. Sweep a broom around violently, and see if any invisible gnomes crash in to the walls. Set up some glass bottles outside the range of the broom - the gnomes should be knocked in to them.

2. Having created by part 1 a gnome free space, and established none are about, exclude drafts, sit still, and place candles around you. If dancing gnomes approach the candles will flicker violently as the gnomish dance displaces air.

3. If the candles flickering suggest gnomes are dancing near by, take a can of aerosol paint, and spray the area (you may wish to do wish outdoors. The gnomes should become visible as paint adheres to them) - but be careful not to spray the candles and blow yourself up, obviously.

4. Hit the now visible gnome with your broom, and having stunned it place it in a basket for further scientific study.

This should work I think?

cj x

Or you could pray to your god and see what happens. Nothing.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

I must admit to ignorance regarding Anglican theology, I just know about the divorce thing. And don't you have a gay bishop or something?

I guess i'm going ot have to go read what the Catholic magisterium has to say on hellfire. In case you have not guessed, I don't believe in it,and find the concept rather bizarre: but I don't blame anyone for thinking it likely I do, given my Christianity. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and all that.

Well, not believing in any of it myself, I can't fault you for not believing in some of it. However, even assuming the Bible was composed centuries later by fallible scribes, Hell is a significant part of the NT. We aren't nitpicking Lil J's ancestral line or whether there was a census or when Quirinius assumed governorship here.

When anyone asks Jesus "so what exactly happens to the people who aren't saved," his answer (when he gives one) is pretty directly "burn burn, crackle crackle." Hell == separation from God is actually a more pedantic interpretation, requiring assumptions of God's motivation and the willingness to believe he would lie to his followers directly, the way a father might threaten a child with a punishment he never intends to inflict.

Not a very good father, mind you.

1. Sweep a broom around violently, and see if any invisible gnomes crash in to the walls. Set up some glass bottles outside the range of the broom - the gnomes should be knocked in to them.

Gnomes can dance around bristles, and aerosol droplets (these are small gnomes). As for candles, when you see a candle flicker, that's not a small draft in the air. That is a gnome.

Any belief can be reduced to unfalsifiability if you only have faith.