Respecting Christians

[cj.23]

Or you could pray to your god and see what happens. Nothing.

Different type of thing though. Testing the qualities of invisible gnomes merely requires patience, a broom and some time. Invisible gnomes would be natural entities - just invisible - but we can test for them.

Prayer is not the same thing. Imagine I ask "can you lend me a tenner?" You may or may not respond. You may give me a tenner, a hearty kick in the cods, utterly ignore me or give me fifty euros. What we are dealing with here is a relationship, and communication between two conscious entities. I think prayer is believed to work like that -- otherwise it would not be prayer, it would be part of natural law.

Imagine we pray for a BMW. A BMW appears. Every time. OK, then that would be a perfectly solid natural phenomena. BMW's appear when people ask for them. It would be as predictable and mappable as gravity, even if just as dimly understood. Sadly prayer is not meant to be like that. It's supposed to be like my asking you for ten euros.

If relationships and personal interactions worked predictably, every "Get laid Tonight by our secret method" advert on the web would actually work? My experience suggest that is not so? (Yours may difffer?!!)

cj x

 

[dafydd]

I must admit to ignorance regarding Anglican theology, I just know about the divorce thing. And don't you have a gay bishop or something?



Well, not believing in any of it myself, I can't fault you for not believing in some of it. However, even assuming the Bible was composed centuries later by fallible scribes, Hell is a significant part of the NT. We aren't nitpicking Lil J's ancestral line or whether there was a census or when Quirinius assumed governorship here.

When anyone asks Jesus "so what exactly happens to the people who aren't saved," his answer (when he gives one) is pretty directly "burn burn, crackle crackle." Hell == separation from God is actually a more pedantic interpretation, requiring assumptions of God's motivation and the willingness to believe he would lie to his followers directly, the way a father might threaten a child with a punishment he never intends to inflict.

Not a very good father, mind you.

That goes to the heart of my problem with Christianity.

 

[dafydd]

If relationships and personal interactions worked predictably, every "Get laid Tonight by our secret method" advert on the web would actually work? My experience suggest that is not so? (Yours may difffer?!!)

cj x

I have never had that experience. I have had relationships since I was eighteen , being the handsome devil that I am. How can I respect Christians when some are 6000 BC creationists, some believe that the Earth is billions of years old but ID is responsible for us, some believe in the rapture, some do not, they all cherry pick the bible, etc, etc.... They can't all be right.

 

[cj.23]

I must admit to ignorance regarding Anglican theology, I just know about the divorce thing. And don't you have a gay bishop or something?

I would imagine so. We have a lot of gay vicars. One of them conducted my wedding service, lovely bloke. I'm not hot on Anglican theology either - I know a bit, but it varies wildly. We are a broad church, all kind of people belong and the beliefs re pretty diverse.

Well, not believing in any of it myself, I can't fault you for not believing in some of it. However, even assuming the Bible was composed centuries later by fallible scribes, Hell is a significant part of the NT. We aren't nitpicking Lil J's ancestral line or whether there was a census or when Quirinius assumed governorship here.

Yep. I did do a lengthy overview of it on the old Richard Dawkins forum, and also a long analysis of what seemed to be intended by damnation and salvation. I am working ta moment so don;t have the time to go find it in the archive (the website was deleted) but the thing that came over strongly was that the dominant theme (because the Bible has multiple theological strands within itself) seems to be that Sin (whatever that is) causes Death, but salvation grants eternal life.

By the end of reading through it, this was the incredibly simple conclusion I came to - that the argument seems to be that we are all sinners (which is inherent in being human), and hence all will die (being mortal), but can escape this and have an afterlife by God's intervention (salvation), but not by our own efforts, only God's (grace). That struck me as the heart of the Gospel promise; a promise of personal immortality rather than death.

Still I'll go have a look at the hell stuff in a couple of days when I have finished the work I'm stuck doing till then...

cj x

 

[cj.23]

I have never had that experience. I have had relationships since I was eighteen , being the handsome devil that I am. How can I respect Christians when some are creationists, some believe that the Earth is billions of years old but ID is responsible for us, some believe in the rapture, some do not, they all cherry pick the bible, etc, etc.... They can't all be right.

They are not. They are all wrong. One thing I think anyone can safely say about any complex description of reality is that it is at least partial, and flawed. Christians hold incredibly complex beliefs, and any given Christian is bound to hold some beliefs which are in error?

 

[cj.23]

Gnomes can dance around bristles, and aerosol droplets (these are small gnomes). As for candles, when you see a candle flicker, that's not a small draft in the air. That is a gnome.

Paint sprayers. Stick em on ceiling, and cover every inch of room in blue paint. They are stuffed then. That'll get 'em. If no annoyed blue gnomes appear, none in there. Gnome man's land. Game over gnomes: falsification triumphs?

cj x

 

[Delvo]

It's all a fantasy, like all religions.

how do you know this to be true?

We know that all religious ideas were made up because we have the writings of various people from different places and times who were in the process of making it up. Even if one of the countless collections of made-up stuff that have been assembled in one place or another at one time or another (and in most cases have been altered again by someone else later anyway) happens, by whatever amazing coincidence, to have been right, it was still made up.

If by reality you mean phenomena within the universe, sure. However a super-natural entity could exist outside the universe

How would such an "existence" be any different from non-existence? And what would it have to do with any real religion, since there aren't any that merely assert a Creator's vague, non-existence-like "existence" without going on to assert made-up stuff about that Creator's traits and actions?

 

[dafydd]

They are not. They are all wrong. One thing I think anyone can safely say about any complex description of reality is that it is at least partial, and flawed. Christians hold incredibly complex beliefs, and any given Christian is bound to hold some beliefs which are in error?

Why?

 

[cj.23]

We know that all religious ideas were made up because we have the writings of various people from different places and times who were in the process of making it up. Even if one of the countless collections of made-up stuff that have been assembled in one place or another at one time or another (and in most cases have been altered again by someone else later anyway) happens, by whatever amazing coincidence, to have been right, it was still made up.

The same could be said of our models of the laws of physics. They make entirely sensible predictions and work just fine though? They are derived from the same principles ultimately: induction, deduction, trial and error etc?

How would such an "existence" be any different from non-existence? And what would it have to do with any real religion, since there aren't any that merely assert a Creator's vague, non-existence-like "existence" without going on to assert made-up stuff about that Creator's traits and actions?

An entity external to space/time could theoretically
a) program our Universe
b) intervene in our universe at will
c) reset our universe

at least I think so? As such such an entity would be relevant?

cj x

 

[cj.23]

Why?

Because the map is not the territory. No matter how good my description of your house, it will never reflect the reality of your house perfectly? Your house is not an incredibly complex structure i assume, but the number of chemical and atomic components is mind boggling.

Science or any knowledge provides a partial model of reality: the models improve as we refine them, but ultimately our understanding of say biochemistry, physics or even maths is partial and provisional. The understanding of any human being on any subject is even more so. I hold millions of beliefs about history, philosophy, what my neighbours are like, and what my girlfriend likes. Many of them are plain wrong. It's just I don't currently know which?

cj x

 

[dafydd]

Because the map is not the territory. No matter how good my description of your house, it will never reflect the reality of your house perfectly? Your house is not an incredibly complex structure i assume, but the number of chemical and atomic components is mind boggling.

Science or any knowledge provides a partial model of reality: the models improve as we refine them, but ultimately our understanding of say biochemistry, physics or even maths is partial and provisional. The understanding of any human being on any subject is even more so. I hold millions of beliefs about history, philosophy, what my neighbours are like, and what my girlfriend likes. Many of them are plain wrong. It's just I don't currently know which?

cj x

My house is real. Supernatural gods, the paranormal or whatever you want to call it is merely conjecture.

 

[Steve]

Gnomes can dance around bristles, and aerosol droplets (these are small gnomes). As for candles, when you see a candle flicker, that's not a small draft in the air. That is a gnome.
Any belief can be reduced to unfalsifiability if you only have faith.

I hear that they do flare up briefly like this as they burn.

 

[Mycroft]

Does it matter? It's all a fantasy, like all religions.

It matters to the people it matters to. If it doesn't matter to you, then you don't need to follow the discussion.

 

[dafydd]

It matters to the people it matters to. If it doesn't matter to you, then you don't need to follow the discussion.

I want to see the excuses that the believers come up with.

 

[A'isha]

I want to see the excuses that the believers come up with.

And then what?

 

[dafydd]

And then what?

Why should there be a then what? Reilgion fascinates me, that is all. I want to see how far people will go in fostering a delusion.

 

[rcfieldz]

we do

Why should there be a then what? Reilgion fascinates me, that is all. I want to see how far people will go in fostering a delusion.

I do every time I read your replies...

 

[dafydd]

I do every time I read your replies...

Would that be the delusion that I am living in reality? Do you have anything useful to add to the discussion or are you going to carry on with your meaningless sniping?

 

[GeeMack]

Why should there be a then what? Reilgion fascinates me, that is all. I want to see how far people will go in fostering a delusion.

I agree. I'm intrigued by the gyrations people go through to make their fantasies feel real. The self deception, willful ignorance, convoluted logic, and in almost every case, the outright lying believers will do to cling to their delusions is amazing. What I find really fascinating is how common the symptoms are among the UFO/psychic BS/ghost/Bigfoot/etc. believers. Religious people, conspiracy theorists, and science crackpots seem to take it to the extreme.

These are people who, for the most part, can tie their own shoes, cook a meal, hold a job, drive a vehicle, and live otherwise perfectly normal lives. But when it comes to their little compartmentalized delusions, it's no holds barred. The capacity for critical thinking, or any kind of thinking at all, just disappears.

That in itself doesn't lose them the respect. They lose it at the point where they are given the tools to sort the objective from the subjective, and they persist in willful ignorance and dishonesty. It's pretty despicable when they act as if other people should accept the delusions as part of the bigger reality. When they don't have the courage or honesty to admit that they just believe with no evidence, no support, or no objective rationale, there's little left to respect.

But it's still fascinating.

 

[dafydd]

I agree. I'm intrigued by the gyrations people go through to make their fantasies feel real. The self deception, willful ignorance, convoluted logic, and in almost every case, the outright lying believers will do to cling to their delusions is amazing. What I find really fascinating is how common the symptoms are among the UFO/psychic BS/ghost/Bigfoot/etc. believers. Religious people, conspiracy theorists, and science crackpots seem to take it to the extreme.

These are people who, for the most part, can tie their own shoes, cook a meal, hold a job, drive a vehicle, and live otherwise perfectly normal lives. But when it comes to their little compartmentalized delusions, it's no holds barred. The capacity for critical thinking, or any kind of thinking at all, just disappears.

That in itself doesn't lose them the respect. They lose it at the point where they are given the tools to sort the objective from the subjective, and they persist in willful ignorance and dishonesty. It's pretty despicable when they act as if other people should accept the delusions as part of the bigger reality. When they don't have the courage or honesty to admit that they just believe with no evidence, no support, or no objective rationale, there's little left to respect.

But it's still fascinating.

If they would only just say ''I believe in spite of the fact that there is no evidence'' and leave it at that then I might be able to drum up a smidgeon of respect for them.