Respecting Christians

[Craig4]

This deserves its own thread.

Short answer -- the universe is set up to give you a free choice.

God's foreknowledge of the outcome in no way restricts the free choice; there is no contradiction between omniscience and free will, and the only way you get to one is by just deciding that there is one.

Free choice is, as the name implies free. The myth you're offering is extortion and cannot be confused under any circumstances as free.

 

[AvalonXQ]

AvalonXQ doesn't want me to burn forever, and that's very kind of her, but she still sees it as what a sinner ultimately deserves and a just, swift swing of God's gavel. (See here.) That is a very common approach to the issue ("What if you're wrong?", preachers, most clergymen, anecdotal examples), and one that makes me more than a little uneasy.

I guess what I don't understand is why it makes it difficult for you to respect me.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Free choice is, as the name implies free. The myth you're offering is extortion and cannot be confused under any circumstances as free.

Well, I guess it depends on what we mean by "free"; the term's a bit imprecise.

I just mean that there's no causal requirement to behave in a certain way -- there is an actual decision that the human being gets to make.

It's not consequence-free, in that different decisions have different consequences.

So it's free in the same way that an un-incarcerated woman is free. She can still choose to do things that will get her arrested, but she is "free" to do them and suffer the consequences -- unlike a woman in prison, who may be physically prevented from doing these same things.

 

[Legend]

The problem is that if you want to address what Christians believe, you have to actually address what they believe, as described by them in their own words, not what you think they should believe based on your own reading of scripture.

...why does this conversation seem so familiar?

Maybe I have my moron cap on tonight, maybe I am a moron, and/or maybe I need to sleep for once, because whatever you guys are saying seems like incomprehensible and completely nonsensical Neptunian rambling.

ANTPogo pretty much satisfies the criteria I've outlined. She believes our "rebellion" is deserving of Hell, and I'm going to assume, based on her potentially cheeky silence on the issue, that she believes you suffer as the Bible says you suffer.

Even in the absence of someone who fits the criteria (which I actually expected to be the case, by the way), I'm not entirely sure what the issue is with outlining an aversion to a popular, standard, biblically consistent belief and asking two questions about it that aren't even addressed to those people, anyway:

Do you find it difficult to respect Christians, and why isn't this point discussed more when the topic of religion pops up or a believer has a seizure at us because he thinks we aren't respecting his beliefs?

Ergo, I'm trying to address a popular belief, not locate the Christians who espouse it and interrogate them, nor am I trying to lump them into one category, which is evidenced by the blatant provisions I made in the OP.

Seriously, take me through step-by-step what I'm doing wrong because I have no idea what there is to dispute and I usually would have gotten the picture by now and have refined things suitably.

I guess what I don't understand is why it makes it difficult for you to respect me.

Because that is an utterly deplorable position. Anyone who tells me I deserve to perennially burn deserves a punch in the face a stern look of disapproval, at the very least. The question that should cause you the most confusion is how I could respect such a disgusting thing.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Because that is an utterly deplorable position.

I still don't understand what's so deplorable about it. Is it the fact that I think annihilating souls in the fires of Gehenna is a proper response to souls separating themselves from God through sin?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Out of curiosity which Christian denomination do you belong to - yes I am being sarcastic but all you are doing is telling people what they believe rather than addressing what they actually do believe.

What if what they believe conflicts with what they profess?

Most christians are decent people who don't really think heathens deserve eternal torment just for disbelief; yet the religion they subscribe to says just that. How else do you make them see they're implicitly endorsing systemic hatred and bile other than pointing to the relevant passages and saying "no, look, this is what your god says?"

 

[Craig4]

I still don't understand what's so deplorable about it. Is it the fact that I think annihilating souls in the fires of Gehenna is a proper response to souls separating themselves from God through sin?

So you believe in this god thingy as some petulant toddler throwing people into the worst torture imaginable for thought crimes?

 

[Legend]

I still don't understand what's so deplorable about it. Is it the fact that I think annihilating souls in the fires of Gehenna is a proper response to souls separating themselves from God through sin?

Oh yes, that may have the slightest of things to do with it. Like I said in my previous post, this hinges on whether or not you believe suffering is involved; if yes: bingo, and if not: "hermeneutic magic trick".

You know this already, you're just still doing the Socratic irony thing, but I'm playing along because I've always wanted to act.

 

[AvalonXQ]

You know this already, you're just still doing the Socratic irony thing, but I'm playing along because I've always wanted to act.

No, I assure you my posts are earnest. I am, in fact, moderately offended that you believe otherwise.

 

[Legend]

You had no idea that it could be the exact thing I have been repeatedly saying it was from the first post to this one? The one thing pertinent to this topic that you believe that could understandably irk me? Maybe I'm "respecting" you too much by thinking you surely couldn't be that out-of-touch.

 

[A'isha]

Maybe I have my moron cap on tonight, maybe I am a moron, and/or maybe I need to sleep for once, because whatever you guys are saying seems like incomprehensible and completely nonsensical Neptunian rambling.

Just trying to say that addressing AvalonXQ's statements of belief are one thing, but generalizing based on that (or based on how you yourself read scripture) to other Christians is another thing entirely.

 

[Legend]

Just trying to say that addressing AvalonXQ's statements of belief are one thing, but generalizing based on that (or based on how you yourself read scripture) to other Christians is another thing entirely.

I don't see how it's a generalisation in the first place.

I've been a tad belligerent tonight, haven't I? Apologies. Recently, these topics have been tiring me quickly.

 

[AvalonXQ]

You had no idea that it could be the exact thing I have been repeatedly saying it was from the first post to this one? The one thing pertinent to this topic that you believe that could understandably irk me?

My issue is that I don't understand what's deplorable about it. I don't understand how it prevents you from being able to respect the people who believe it.

 

[A'isha]

I don't see how it's a generalisation in the first place.

Well, I just think that if you're going to refuse to respect someone based on their beliefs regarding you, you could at least do it based on things they specifically say directly to you about those beliefs, rather than make assumptions.

In other words, I'm not going to worry about my reaction to someone who believes I'm going to be consigned to eternal torment unless and until they come out and tell me to my face that they believe I'm going to be consigned to eternal torment.

I've been a tad belligerent tonight, haven't I? Apologies. Recently, these topics have been tiring me quickly.

Having been there myself very recently, believe me, I completely empathize!

 

[Legend]

My issue is that I don't understand what's deplorable about it. I don't understand how it prevents you from being able to respect the people who believe it.

About believing something should be subjected to eternal torture to no outcome? Well, maybe you should get counselling, I don't know.

Well, I just think that if you're going to refuse to respect someone based on their beliefs regarding you, you could at least do it based on things they specifically say directly to you about those beliefs, rather than make assumptions.

But like I said, it's a "popular and biblically consistent" interpretation and haven't been applying to everyone. I do take it case-by-case, but if they're someone who holds to the idea that I'm going to Hell, then it's time to notify Houston.

Having been there myself very recently, believe me, I completely empathize!

Yay.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

My issue is that I don't understand what's deplorable about it. I don't understand how it prevents you from being able to respect the people who believe it.

Imagine you have a racist friend. He hates some race that neither of you belong to. Say the Inuit - just hates the furry little bastards. Despite neither of you being Inuit, and neither of you even knowing any Inuit, would you find yourself respecting him less because of it?

So it is with damnation. Despite the fact that there is no hell, and I have no soul to burn in it, I still find it faintly deplorable that you believe I deserve to be there.

 

[Craig4]

My issue is that I don't understand what's deplorable about it. I don't understand how it prevents you from being able to respect the people who believe it.

Tell me, what crimes could someone commit that were justify an eternity or torment?

 

[westprog]

I'm not wasting my time doing your job for you, sorry.

Sorry to come off rude, but there's something particularly aggravating about people who refuse to learn about their own religion.

That is pretty funny. How can you respect people when they won't even listen to being told what their beliefs are?

 

[westprog]

The problem is that if you want to address what Christians believe, you have to actually address what they believe, as described by them in their own words, not what you think they should believe based on your own reading of scripture.

...why does this conversation seem so familiar?

It's atheist fundamentalism. It's a very odd thing, not normally encountered in the wild, but it's all over JREF. Part of the bible-based belief system of atheist fundamentalists is that Christians think that all atheists will go to hell and be tormented forever, and they are OK with it. It's based on faith rather than evidence.

 

[GeeMack]

My issue is that I don't understand what's deplorable about it. I don't understand how it prevents you from being able to respect the people who believe it.

It's not really disrespecting people for simply believing in magic or living as if under the constant threat of suffering at the hands of an invisible magical being. It's more to do with their projection of those irrational beliefs onto other people as if the Christian fantasy should be other people's reality. Maybe it has more to do with rationalizing their belief in invisible magical beings with hypocrisy and dishonesty, and their judging other people as sinful based on those rationalizations. That is a pretty deplorable way for Christians to be and doesn't merit any respect.