Respecting Christians

[AvalonXQ]

The idea that angels are fallable should make one a little skeptical of anything an angel says, should it not?

Absolutely. See Galatians 1 and 2 Corinthians 11.

 

[Resume]

The idea that angels are fallable should make one a little skeptical of anything an angel says, should it not?

Well, you know what George Carlin has to say on the subject of angels.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Isn't god Omniscient though? So he knows that Legend and I will both fail to believe in him and therefore be sent to hell, and has always known this from before the start of the universe.

So...how is it our choice? It was already predetermined by the fact that god knows how absolutely everything will pan out right up until the eventual end of time/the universe/whatever. There can be no choice because our destination is already known.

This deserves its own thread.

Short answer -- the universe is set up to give you a free choice.

God's foreknowledge of the outcome in no way restricts the free choice; there is no contradiction between omniscience and free will, and the only way you get to one is by just deciding that there is one.

 

[Resume]

Short answer -- the universe is set up to give you a free choice.

That's quite the statement. How can you know that?

 

[Legend]

I personally find it easier to respect Christians (and other believers), even if their beliefs include my own inevitable eternal torment, if they don't bug me about it. People believe weird crap, and even believe insulting crap, but if they aren't vocal and aggressive about it, why should I let it bother me? Do unto others and all that.

But this is like mass torture because of a stupid, arbitrary moral standard. That's the fundamental part of the Westboro Baptist Church's message that gives society a spontaneous conniption and subsequently excuse as the animal preaching of a demented few.

Yeah, I was raised with a basic "live and let live" attitude about religion. The problem is when people try to force their religious beliefs on others. Frankly it doesn't matter if you are an atheist or simply a believer in a different religion, when someone starts shoving their beliefs in your face it is rude.

Of course, when things are forced onto us there's a big problem, but that's another reason to lose respect for people.

There is a time and a place for religious discussion and we should respect the beliefs of others by keeping our personal faiths private outside of that time and place.

The belief exists, though, regardless of whether we engage in the conversation.

Well, I find it hard to dislike Christians merely because they condemn an Australian to eternal perdition...

...fortunately, there are lots of better reasons!

Like jealousy!

Compartmentalize. The vast majority of Christians that I know don't wear their religion on their sleeves. If you don't want to talk about religion, you normally won't have to. Most have many things you can respect them for. Focus on that.

But if the discussion turns to religion, let them know how you feel and agree to disagree. You can still respect a person without respecting all their beliefs. I'd venture to say that there are few people in the world who share all your beliefs.

This. Well said.

That's true, but isn't it a little different to racism or xenophobia? I can respect someone who's subtly racist provided they make up for it elsewhere, but if someone finds morality in my eternal suffering, then I just really can't ignore such a barbaric death wish because he helps old ladies across the street.

Respect...should be given to all beings. Do Christians create a respecting blockade to your existence?

What a ridiculous question.

I understand completely what you are saying. For me, respect is something where you start with a perfect score and can only lose points. A total stranger, I respect completely until the point where they start losing my respect. Sometimes they gain some back too.

I agree with you here. My default is to respect someone until I have reason not to. Kind of an innocent until proven guilty deal, I suppose.

Which is a result of your choice to not wish to be with God.

You've completely and utterly missed the point.

So, you are the one condoning your own suffering, if that suffering is to be had.

And you can go find a hole in the ground to decompose in after that comment. Thanks, please go away now.

Is that true?

Abraham disagreed with God over his plans for Sodom, even argued with him over it. God loved Abraham so much he made him father of...well, all the Abrahamic religions.

That change the fact that God's judgement must be correct? A proverbial Abraham can argue, but ultimately he has to submit to and endorse God's will.

Thanks, but I don't feel I've dodged the issue at all -- I addressed it head-on.


I don't think that. I don't think anyone's punishment or reward has anything to do with their atheism. It has to do with our sins -- of which I don't claim you're any worse off than me, or anyone else.
In my belief system, I am neither the cause of anyone's punishment nor do I desire that anyone be punished. Again, it's hard for me to see what about this viewpoint is repugnant.

Then again, you don't have any responsibility to give me any respect. I still plan to do my best to treat you with respect, and I hope you'll do the same.

That's still semantic dodging. Disbelief is naturally a sin, atheism is therefore a sinful behaviour. I've adumbrated why it's repulsive and it's a very simple deductive proposition by now. As far as I'm concerned, excuse the accusation, but you're doing the whole Socratic irony thing and pretending that you don't understand what is so fundamentally abhorrent about finding eternal suffering to be a just result of anything one does on this Earth.

You can say you don't want me to suffer, which very well might contradict a few biblical passages (one of which I mentioned in the OP), but you can't say it's the wrong choice otherwise you'll be disagreeing with your god's divine judgement.

Wouldn't a lot depend on a particular Christian's beliefs? For instance for the lot that I was born into hell is simply life apart from god, and god - because he sacrificed his own son - will forgive us everything and anything so we all get everlasting life in the presence of god. My lot abhorred those "non-true-scot" Christians who believed that god would condemn anyone to everlasting suffering and who would pass judgements on others e.g. "only god can judge you".*

Fair point, but it makes the whole thing a little sinuous. The Bible dictates that we'll be off to Hell because disbelief is a sin and sin will send you to hell (or because we aren't "saved" by Jesus, however you want to put it), and because that is God's judgement, it is just and we deserve it; in fact, all of humanity deserves it because we are inherently sinners.

 

[arthwollipot]

I respect people. Unless they give me some reason not to. Their religion has nothing to do with whether I respect them or not. Their behaviour does. Some of that behaviour may be informed by their religion, some of it perhaps not. Regardless, it isn't what they believe that I take into consideration. It's how they act.

 

[dafydd]

I respect people. Unless they give me some reason not to. Their religion has nothing to do with whether I respect them or not. Their behaviour does. Some of that behaviour may be informed by their religion, some of it perhaps not. Regardless, it isn't what they believe that I take into consideration. It's how they act.

True. I judge people by their actions, not what they say they believe in.

 

[AvalonXQ]

That's still semantic dodging. Disbelief is naturally a sin, atheism is therefore a sinful behaviour.

Not to my knowledge.
Feel free to correct me if you have Scripture, but my understanding is that disbelief in the Bible is presented as an excuse to allow people to justify their sins, not a sin itself.

You can say you don't want me to suffer, which very well might contradict a few biblical passages (one of which I mentioned in the OP), but you can't say it's the wrong choice otherwise you'll be disagreeing with your god's divine judgement.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

And then, of course, there's John 3:16 and all the others. Heck, even take a look at Jonah. It's quite against the Biblical narrative to say that God wants you to fail and suffer; clearly God wants you to obey and succeed.

 

[Legend]

I'm not wasting my time doing your job for you, sorry.

Sorry to come off rude, but there's something particularly aggravating about people who refuse to learn about their own religion.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I'm not wasting my time doing your job for you, sorry.

Sorry to come off rude, but there's something particularly aggravating about people who refuse to learn about their own religion.

No, I understand.

Honestly, I find it aggravating that you think you know more about my religion than I do.

And in the Bible it's sin, not unbelief, that separates one from God. Unbelief just stops you from feeling bad about it.

But it doesn't surprise me that you can't respect Christians if you make it a habit to decide what they think and believe. It's hard to respect someone when you demonize her in your head and won't listen to her.

 

[Legend]

You clearly haven't read anything I've written, so I'm not compelled to return the favour because every point you've raised has already been addressed.

One more time because I'm such a charitable young chap:

If I'm not saved by Jesus, I'm a sinner. Sinners deserve Hell because God deems it so for some reason. God's judgement is flawless and perfectly just. You, therefore, as a follower of your god, condone my and anyone else's suffering based on the whim of your deity.

It's a very clear and obvious point I'm making.

 

[Pup]

Not to my knowledge.
Feel free to correct me if you have Scripture, but my understanding is that disbelief in the Bible is presented as an excuse to allow people to justify their sins, not a sin itself.

So if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that hypothetically, an atheist could be admitted to heaven or avoid hell (whatever reward/punishment you believe occurs in the afterlife), and never believe in the divinity of God or Jesus or worship them?

I expect that in practice, even if a Christian agreed with that, the follow-up would be: but no one can live a life so perfectly that they could get into heaven on their own actions, so they need to accept Jesus to be forgiven for their sins.

Then we'd be right back to the idea that non-Christians deserve torture in the afterlife simply for not believing in Jesus, even if they're far above average in good behavior.

Do you think a better-behaved atheist, who still isn't perfect, is more deserving of punishment in the afterlife than a worse-behaved Christian, who has done whatever you think is necessary to have his sins atoned by Jesus?

 

[AvalonXQ]

You clearly haven't read anything I've written, so I'm not compelled to return the favour because every point you've raised has already been addressed.

What you are saying translates into:

"I am going to label you, decide what you believe, and disrespect you based on it. This also means I don't have to listen to what you have to say."

It must be remarkably convenient for you.

 

[arthwollipot]

Not to my knowledge.
Feel free to correct me if you have Scripture, but my understanding is that disbelief in the Bible is presented as an excuse to allow people to justify their sins, not a sin itself.

I think the closest it comes is the (traditional) First Commandment - Thou shall have no other gods before me. To not believe in any god is arguably a violation of this commandment, since the commandment is essentially saying that God is supreme and should be held above everything else. But even that doesn't really relate to atheism, since atheists don't believe in any gods, and can therefore not reasonably be said to hold any one above any other.

 

[AvalonXQ]

So if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that hypothetically, an atheist could be admitted to heaven or avoid hell (whatever reward/punishment you believe occurs in the afterlife), and never believe in the divinity of God or Jesus or worship them?

Correct.

I expect that in practice, even if a Christian agreed with that, the follow-up would be: but no one can live a life so perfectly that they could get into heaven on their own actions, so they need to accept Jesus to be forgiven for their sins.

That's about right, yes.

Then we'd be right back to the idea that non-Christians deserve torture in the afterlife simply for not believing in Jesus, even if they're far above average in good behavior.

Not really, no.

Do you think a better-behaved atheist, who still isn't perfect, is more deserving of punishment in the afterlife than a worse-behaved Christian, who has done whatever you think is necessary to have his sins atoned by Jesus?

Nope.

 

[Legend]

You're still ignoring the issue completely. You're not interested in this discussion whatsoever; you want to dodge it in one of the familiar ways I outlined in the very first post of this thread. Look:

I can get along with a Christian in most instances by settling with the fact that they probably don't wish me perennial perdition, they just haven't thought about it much, have explained it through some ridiculous hermeneutic magic trick, and/or haven't even read the book they should be reading daily. Still, it's an uncomfortable thought, right? Hell for me is justice in their eyes... and maybe a few others'.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I think the closest it comes is the (traditional) First Commandment - Thou shall have no other gods before me. To not believe in any god is arguably a violation of this commandment, since the commandment is essentially saying that God is supreme and should be held above everything else. But even that doesn't really relate to atheism, since atheists don't believe in any gods, and can therefore not reasonably be said to hold any one above any other.

And unless you're an Israelite living under the Law of Moses, that commandment doesn't apply to you anyway.

 

[AvalonXQ]

You're still ignoring the issue completely. You're not interested in this discussion whatsoever; you want to dodge it in one of the familiar ways I outlined in the very first post of this thread. Look:

Yes, I'm aware that you gave yourself an out -- so that, again, you can tell Christians what they believe and then refuse to listen to them.

Prejudice isn't any better when you do it, you know.

 

[Darat]

And unless you're an Israelite living under the Law of Moses, that commandment doesn't apply to you anyway.

You missed out a "according to my beliefs" at the start of that post.

 

[arthwollipot]

If I'm not saved by Jesus, I'm a sinner.

Only in Calvinist and related theologies that include the doctrine of Total Depravity.

I expect that in practice, even if a Christian agreed with that, the follow-up would be: but no one can live a life so perfectly that they could get into heaven on their own actions, so they need to accept Jesus to be forgiven for their sins.

Under Catholic theology, Faith and Works are required for salvation. Under Protestant theology pioneered by Martin Luther, Faith alone is necessary.