Requiring oxygen to survive while black

Venom said:
Learn to control people in a way that they don't have to struggle to breathe can be.
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....and of course there's the whole "defund the police" argument - which is more of a "properly fund other functions so that the police don't end up being the first point of contact for all kinds of issues which aren't really part of their remit" argument.
 
Darat said:
You see if they die or they don't. If they don't die you can double the penalty and if they die then you don't double their penalty.
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Hmm... 2 X 0 =?

Nope, not going to change much. Again, cops in most communities are simply unable to deal with mental illness. Best get people who can, connected toi emergency services in the long term. Combine it with the "warrior cop", "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" training and line of thought, and you get this sort of mess, again and again. More often per capita for black people than white, and more for indigenous than any other group, but bad for every group.
 
Mumbles said:
Hmm... 2 X 0 =?



Nope, not going to change much. Again, cops in most communities are simply unable to deal with mental illness. Best get people who can, connected toi emergency services in the long term. Combine it with the "warrior cop", "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" training and line of thought, and you get this sort of mess, again and again. More often per capita for black people than white, and more for indigenous than any other group, but bad for every group.
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Most police services in the "developed" world face the same issue in regards to the mentally ill, especially violent incidents. The police forces in the UK are not great in this regard but have tried to get better and I've had personal experience in seeing how they do deal with such issues and it isn't from a starting position of fear and treating the unwell person as a criminal.

Looking at many of these incidents it does seem that for many police officers their interactions with their fellow citizens is one of immediate escalation and conflict.

In the UK we've learnt by hard experience it is about accountability, that left unaccountable you will get the police falsifying accounts, colluding to act in unlawful ways, unwarranted violence and so on. But until the people who can force such changes act you will see no changes.
 
Again what's even being argued here? I know that by internet law every discussion is some hangwringing about "oH buT wE CAn't gO tOO fAR iN DA UDDER DirECTION!" but what is too far in the other direction? What other direction?

When ever this topic comes up we have people are dancing around and hinting at the black people "getting away" with something by faking not being able to breathe or that cops are (somehow) being expected to put their lives in danger by checking but... how? What? Why? What again.

When the black person with the bag over their head and who you have your knee in their neck says they can't breathe... you don't have to let them go. You just do whatever might be keeping from breathing. You can still keep a suspect under reasonable levels of control and restraint.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again what's even being argued here? I know that by internet law every discussion is some hangwringing about "oH buT wE CAn't gO tOO fAR iN DA UDDER DirECTION!" but what is too far in the other direction? What other direction?

When ever this topic comes up we have people are dancing around and hinting at the black people "getting away" with something by faking not being able to breathe or that cops are (somehow) being expected to put their lives in danger by checking but... how? What? Why? What again.

When the black person with the bag over their head and who you have your knee in their neck says they can't breathe... you don't have to let them go. You just do whatever might be keeping from breathing. You can still keep a suspect under reasonable levels of control and restraint.
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There's really no reason why a handcuffed person need to be kept restrained face down. He's cuffed, there's multiple cops on the scene, there's a 0% chance of meaningful resistance, escape, or danger to the police.

In other countries, care is taken so that cuffed people are removed from this highly stressful and dangerous position.
 
Darat said:
Most police services in the "developed" world face the same issue in regards to the mentally ill, especially violent incidents. The police forces in the UK are not great in this regard but have tried to get better and I've had personal experience in seeing how they do deal with such issues and it isn't from a starting position of fear and treating the unwell person as a criminal.

Looking at many of these incidents it does seem that for many police officers their interactions with their fellow citizens is one of immediate escalation and conflict.

In the UK we've learnt by hard experience it is about accountability, that left unaccountable you will get the police falsifying accounts, colluding to act in unlawful ways, unwarranted violence and so on. But until the people who can force such changes act you will see no changes.
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Agreed - and that's why people are saying, among other things, that police unions and societies should have no place - they don't serve simply to secure salaries and safe work conditions, but rather to provide pro-violence training, give cover to repeat offenders in police departments, and among the higher ups to push a wildly racist ideology. In other words, they're nothing at all like most other unions and professional societies.
 
Mumbles said:
Agreed - and that's why people are saying, among other things, that police unions and societies should have no place - they don't serve simply to secure salaries and safe work conditions, but rather to provide pro-violence training, give cover to repeat offenders in police departments, and among the higher ups to push a wildly racist ideology. In other words, they're nothing at all like most other unions and professional societies.
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This is something that pisses me off to no end. I've been a member of two separate professional societies in my life and both were founded on one bedrock principle: accountability.

Being a member of the profession was an honor and you had to uphold some basic minimum requirements to stay a member.

The police have turned that concept on its head: being a member of the profession is all you need to avoid ever having to be held accountable for your actions.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again what's even being argued here? I know that by internet law every discussion is some hangwringing about "oH buT wE CAn't gO tOO fAR iN DA UDDER DirECTION!" but what is too far in the other direction? What other direction?

When ever this topic comes up we have people are dancing around and hinting at the black people "getting away" with something by faking not being able to breathe or that cops are (somehow) being expected to put their lives in danger by checking but... how? What? Why? What again.

When the black person with the bag over their head and who you have your knee in their neck says they can't breathe... you don't have to let them go. You just do whatever might be keeping from breathing. You can still keep a suspect under reasonable levels of control and restraint.
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What they'd be "getting away" with would be avoiding the physical punishment that so many people think they deserve. Whatever degree police and their supporters think this kind of restraint and violence is meant for the safety of the police, a substantial number of them ALSO think that port of the job of police is to mete out direct punishment to those they view as "bad" people.

In their view, a "bad" person, resisting arrest and being taken in without being roughed up is a failure of the system. And if that roughing up extends to permanent injury or death, that's part of what police are supposed to do in their eyes.

I think very few of them would admit to this if challenged to. But the insistence on the supposed character and history of each victim, the clear fear of them "getting away" with something by claiming to be unable to breathe, so many of the common reactions to these stories and discussions certainly paint that picture.

About half of Americans grew up on GI Joe or Superheros or whatever and internalized the idea that the job of the good guys (cops) is to beat up the bad guys.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I see the "LOL he's on PCP so at any moment he can snap the handcuffs, leap 50 feet into the air, punch a building in half, and shrug off .50 caliber cannon rounds to chest" thing from the 80s is trying its best to make a comeback.
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You can never be too careful, it might turn out that he's a Terminator.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again what's even being argued here? I know that by internet law every discussion is some hangwringing about "oH buT wE CAn't gO tOO fAR iN DA UDDER DirECTION!" but what is too far in the other direction? What other direction?

When ever this topic comes up we have people are dancing around and hinting at the black people "getting away" with something by faking not being able to breathe or that cops are (somehow) being expected to put their lives in danger by checking but... how? What? Why? What again.

When the black person with the bag over their head and who you have your knee in their neck says they can't breathe... you don't have to let them go. You just do whatever might be keeping from breathing. You can still keep a suspect under reasonable levels of control and restraint.
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Yes. Pretty much this.
 
Think it is an issue with spit hoods more than anything else tbh.

Had someone die a few years ago here with one.
 
Rochester police chief, entire command staff resign following death of Daniel Prude

Rochester, N.Y., Police Chief La'Ron Singletary said in announcing his retirement that the events of the past week "are an attempt to destroy my character and integrity."
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The chief and entire command staff of the police department in Rochester, New York, resigned Tuesday — among other department changes — as outrage continued over the death of Daniel Prude, a Black man with mental health issues who died after having been put in a "spit hood" and restrained by officers in March.

Chief La'Ron Singletary announced that he would be retiring after 20 years on the force, according to a media release from the department. Singletary said the events of the past week "are an attempt to destroy my character and integrity."

"The members of the Rochester Police Department and the Greater Rochester Community know my reputation and know what I stand for," Singletary, 40, said in his resignation letter. "The mischaracterization and the politicization of the actions that I took after being informed of Mr. Prude's death is not based on facts, and is not what I stand for."

Deputy Chief Joseph Morabito and Commander Fabian Rivera also announced their retirements Tuesday. Two other high ranking officials, Deputy Chief Mark Simmons and Commander Henry Favor, returned to a lower ranking of lieutenant.

Mayor Lovely Warren said during a City Council briefing Tuesday that the "entire Rochester police command staff" has retired and that "there may be a number of others that will decide to leave, as well." She insisted to the council Tuesday that Singletary was not asked to resign and that she felt he had given his "very best."

In a statement Tuesday, Warren said that the chief will remain in charge of the department through the end of the month.
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I listened to a Times podcast yesterday that explained more or less what happened with with Daniel Prude before his encounter with police.

It's a tough job being a police officer. How do you handle a guy who obviously has mental issues (completely naked; says he has Covid, and is spitting). Then his brother calls it a "lynching". Maybe they could have handled it better, but it's not easy to know what to do and also stay safe at the same time. The mayor and the police chief are both black if that matters. Apparently doesn't matter to the protesters: they are still racists. The mayor kind of threw the chief and the police department under the bus when this all came out. That may be why they are all resigning en masse now.


Here's the podcast I listened to if anyone is interested:
What Happened to Daniel Prude?

This episode contains strong language.

In March, Daniel Prude was exhibiting signs of a mental health crisis. His brother called an ambulance in the hopes that Mr. Prude would be hospitalized, but he was sent back home after three hours without a diagnosis.

Later, when Mr. Prude ran out of the house barely clothed into the Rochester night, his brother, Joe Prude, again called on the authorities for help, but this time it was to the police.

After a struggle with officers, Daniel Prude suffered cardiac distress. It would be days before Joe Prude was able to visit him in the hospital — permitted only so he could decide whether to take his brother off life support — and months before the family would find out what had happened when he was apprehended.

Today, we hear from Joe Prude about that night and examine the actions taken by the police during his brother’s arrest, including the official narrative that emerged after his death.

Guest: Sarah Maslin Nir, a reporter for The New York Times, who spoke to Daniel Prude’s brother, Joe Prude.
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Long story short: Daniel Prude isn't from Rochester, he's actually from Chicago. But his brother Joe lived in Rochester. His sister in Chicago noticed that he had started acting strange and sent him a train to go see his brother in Rochester and see if he could straighten him out. His brother called an ambulance to have him taken to a hospital but he was released after about 3 hours and went home.

(Note that the "mental health" route was actually tried here before he resorted to calling the police. If you wondered "Why do they always call the police instead of a doctor or a social worker?" Well, he was taken to a hospital, but I guess the hospital couldn't hold him against his will so they sent him home. The Times doesn't explain what happened in those 3 hours at the hospital or why he was sent home. That's something I'd like to know more about.)

So after he comes home he runs away again. This time his brother calls 911. The police found him buck naked (it's still late winter at the time) and acting bizarrely. Like he's high on PCP or something (that's what they thought anyway). Also he claims to have Covid and he's spitting. So they put a hood on him and things went badly from there. Apparently he vomited inside the hood.

Later lawyers got involved, as well as the Attorney General for the state of NY, and the brother (who had called the police) ended up calling it a lynching in a press conference. A long, sad story, but some people wanted to use it to stoke racial disharmony. I'm not saying the police are faultless here, but I think I can sympathize with their plight. Initially he was taken to a hospital before police were involved at all, but that didn't solve anything. He was sent home a few hours later.
 
Can we once and for all tell all police officers in the US that the fact that someone can gasp out words is in no way an indication that they can inhale? In fact, if someone is kneeling on your back it's easier to speak/exhale than to inhale. I'm sure these morons, like the morons who murdered George Floyd were thinking the same thing.
 
Any use of a choke-hold should be considered attempted murder; this includes kneeling on someone’s chest or upper back. Exhalation is possible, inhalation is severely restricted.
This is not how one is “restrained.” This is murder.
 
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