Reproductive Rights

[AvalonXQ]

You say this like the resources needed to raise a child are extracted from society as a whole. But they aren't in general, and they certainly don't need to be. They come primarily from whoever is having the child. That person is indeed free to allocate their resources as they see fit, and that includes using them to raise a child. Once the child is grown, they can contribute to society. The only burden that is ever placed on society as a whole is through entitlement programs that redirect resources to children or parents, but society doesn't need to offer such benefits. It may choose to, but it cannot fairly use that choice to deprive an individual of the choice of how they allocate their own resources.

That's an interesting argument.
1) Do you assert that it would be moral for society to refuse to recognize the human rights of some of its members?
2) Do you assert that recognizing the human rights of a member of society doesn't impose a burden on society?
It seems clear to me that every time you have a child, society as a whole receives the burden associated with that child's rights, whatever they may be. But if you say yes to either #1 or #2, then this point may be worth discussing further rather than simply assuming that it's true.

 

[Ravynn123]

Okay, so the statistics you've provided thus far seem to be a red herring.

No they are not a red herring. But you want to have a program of forced sterilization because as you put it (paraphrasing, correct me if I am wrong) that unwed pregnancies are the main problem when I simply showed you that you you reasons were flawed because a majority of single parent homes are not caused from unwed pregnancies but from divorced parents. So how does it make it a red herring????

 

[AvalonXQ]

Could you list the rights people do have? In your country, at least.

Another important point. When I'm discussing rights, I'm talking about what rights there should be, rather than what rights our legal system actually acknowledges.
Legally, we do have the right to make any people we are physically able to. But morally, I do not believe human beings have (or if you prefer, should have) any such right.

 

[AvalonXQ]

No they are not a red herring. But you want to have a program of forced sterilization because as you put it (paraphrasing, correct me if I am wrong) that unwed pregnancies are the main problem when I simply showed you that you you reasons were flawed because a majority of single parent homes are not caused from unwed pregnancies but from divorced parents. So how does it make it a red herring????

You agree that unwanted pregnancies are a real problem. Whether or not there is a bigger problem is irrelevant.
You still haven't established that divorce actually is a bigger problem than unwanted pregnancy, but even assuming your point to be true, it doesn't actually have anything to do with a discussion of a method that would eliminate unwanted pregnancy.

 

[Ravynn123]

You agree that unwanted pregnancies are a real problem. Whether or not there is a bigger problem is irrelevant.
You still haven't established that divorce actually is a bigger problem than unwanted pregnancy, but even assuming your point to be true, it doesn't actually have anything to do with a discussion of a method that would eliminate unwanted pregnancy.

I thought the problem was single parent homes that were living on welfare and being a drain to society.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I thought the problem was single parent homes that were living on welfare and being a drain to society.

While I agree that families living on welfare may be a drain on society, and therefore a problem, I don't think this is "the problem".

 

[Arcade22]

While I agree that families living on welfare may be a drain on society, and therefore a problem, I don't think this is "the problem".

What is 'the problem' then?

 

[Ravynn123]

yes please clarify what you think the problem is.

 

[Ravynn123]

Avalon I also see where you are using unwanted pregnancy and I am using unwed. Please don't misunderstand my unwed pregnancy with my daughter was by no means unwanted. She was unplanned yes, but never unwanted. And again I ask maybe you missed this question earlier, Do you have any children?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Please don't misunderstand my unwed pregnancy with my daughter was by no means unwanted. She was unplanned yes, but never unwanted.

Another interesting point.
So, if this system were in place, would you have applied for a parenting license and pregnancy when you were 17?

 

[Ravynn123]

Another interesting point.
So, if this system were in place, would you have applied for a parenting license and pregnancy when you were 17?

I don't know how that matters. Do you think that every unwed pregnancy or unplanned pregnancy is unwanted?

 

[fullflavormenthol]

...and society has the right to prevent you from having kids.

So the whole of the debate is an argument between the notion of individual or societal rights?

Well I can say my perspective is that society has no rights.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I don't know how that matters.

It matters that you were pregnant by accident, and if you had had a choice, you wouldn't have been pregnant.
I think making pregnancy always be an intentional choice would be a very good thing.

 

[funk de fino]

So, in the past, we've sterilized specific groups of people. We've also decided that this was bad.
I'm not so clear on why it's bad to sterilize everyone, and then make parenting a genuine opt-in scenario.

That truly shocks me.

 

[Ravynn123]

It matters that you were pregnant by accident, and if you had had a choice, you wouldn't have been pregnant.
I think making pregnancy always be an intentional choice would be a very good thing.

When did I ever say given the choice I wouldn't have been pregnant? I was unwed and it was unplanned at the time but who said that once I became pregnant that I wasn't over joyed and thrilled that I was pregnant. You assume to much.

 

[Fiona]

Even if we translate that into "preventing all unintended pregnancies would only eliminate 33% of single mothers", why isn't that a considerable fix in and of itself? Especially since the 33% we're fixing are going to tend to be the youngest and least able to support themselves and their children, correct?
Again, fixing the teen mother epidemic may not also fix the divorce epidemic; I'm okay with acknowledging that they are different problems with different solutions.

What percentage of that 33% were in long term relationships but not married. Are you going to limit the right to have children to those who get married now? WTF

 

[funk de fino]

It matters that you were pregnant by accident, and if you had had a choice, you wouldn't have been pregnant.
I think making pregnancy always be an intentional choice would be a very good thing.

In your world, I would not be here today.

Thanks.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's an interesting argument.
1) Do you assert that it would be moral for society to refuse to recognize the human rights of some of its members?

No.

2) Do you assert that recognizing the human rights of a member of society doesn't impose a burden on society?

Yes. I believe in negative rights, not positive rights (a.k.a entitlements). Negative rights are not a burden on society.

 

[jadey]

I think making pregnancy always be an intentional choice would be a very good thing.

I agree that it would be nice if pregnancy was always an intentional choice, but completely disagree with any attempt to enforce it.

 

[Cobalt]

Removing from everyone the ability to naturally become pregnant as a result of sex fixes the problem of unintended pregnancy.

Or just better educate people on safe sex. Yes, it isn't 100%, but better than what you propose by still giving people control over their own bodies.

And I'm amazed there's not been one joke about anal. Kudos.

You have no right to have kids,

According to who? You? Who are you again?

and society has the right to prevent you from having kids.

By what criteria? Financial? Intelligence? Religious Beliefs?
No matter where you draw that line you'll create a class war of immense magnitude.

That truly shocks me.

Welcome to the internet. Probably should get a cup and mouth guard.