Reproductive Rights

[Ziggurat]

I'm not so clear on why it's bad to sterilize everyone, and then make parenting a genuine opt-in scenario.

To start with, because demographic decline sucks. Secondly, what reversible sterilization procedures are there which do not carry risks?

 

[Ziggurat]

Personaly I am for the sterilization of Big Brother contestants.

Well sure, that's easy to say. And of course, we also want that for the Jersey Shore participants. But once you start, where will it end? Do you sterilize Dancing with the Stars contestants? American Idol? America's Funniest Home Videos? Jeopardy contestants? The McLaughlin Group?


On second though, maybe you're right, maybe this approach would work.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I thought it was just a "chewing the fat" discussion,... <snip>

Apparently so.

May I ask if you have been voluntarily sterilised, AvalonXQ?

Not yet. Anyone else here?

AvalonXQ: Why not? To argue a case so passionately, I was certain that you would've answered in the affirmative. I know any number of people who've gone that route, and I would've bet the mortgage money that you were going to hit that question out of the stadium.

So this is just theoretical? (There's an expression for that sort of thing, isn't there?)

 

[Darat]

Well sure, that's easy to say. And of course, we also want that for the Jersey Shore participants. But once you start, where will it end? Do you sterilize Dancing with the Stars contestants? American Idol? America's Funniest Home Videos? Jeopardy contestants? The McLaughlin Group?


On second though, maybe you're right, maybe this approach would work.

I have to disagree with you - you would need to include all the people that create such shows in the first place!

 

[Foolmewunz]

I have to disagree with you - you would need to include all the people that create such shows in the first place!

Agreed, but you'll have to admit that Cowell would be a great starting point.

 

[Ravynn123]

May I ask if you have been voluntarily sterilised, AvalonXQ?

Not yet. Anyone else here?

Yes I had my tubes removed 17 years ago. It was my decision because I didn't want anymore children. I have a daughter and a son and that is all I wanted. It is not something that I would want to force on anyone else. My husband at the time and I talked about it at length. I decided it was what I wanted.

By the way I got pregnant with my daughter when I was 17 years old and gave birth to her when I was 18. I had to go on welfare because of her piece of **** father left and didn't want to take any responsibility for her. I stayed on welfare for about 2 years and I have not been back on it since. I worked to get off of welfare. My daughter is now 22 and a mother of 2. She is going through a divorce and had to go on welfare for a few months until after my grand daughter was born and now she is working and off of welfare too.

So making someone get sterilized because they are on welfare is not a good reason. Yes I know there are a lot of people on welfare that stay on it for life and never do anything to change their situation. My point who has the right to decide if I have children or not. Who has the right to tell anyone they can or can not have children? If you take that away then what will be the next thing that will be taken from people. And who gets to decide who can have a child or not?

Yes I agree there needs to be something done for people who stay on welfare as their career in life, and something needs to be done for people who have children and abuse them. The answer to those two problems are perhaps stricter laws but not to sterilize someone because you think they shouldn't have children. No body has the right to do that.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Not yet. Anyone else here?

I have--about 6 years ago.

ETA: I remember a program in India that was having some success. They were offering movie passes to men who got vasectomies. I think education and a much greater awareness of the problem of overpopulation is a better solution. But anyone who's studied ecology knows that there is a solution, one way or another, if we simply ignore the issue.

 

[AvalonXQ]

By the way I got pregnant with my daughter when I was 17 years old and gave birth to her when I was 18. I had to go on welfare because of her piece of **** father left and didn't want to take any responsibility for her.

This sounds like an example of a problem that the proposed system would fix. I assume that if you and the father were sterile (like everyone else), and had to apply for a parent's license before you could get pregnant, then you would have not have ended up as a single mom at 18, correct? You would have had your daughter later, with a man who would be responsible for her.
Again, I feel the elimination of unplanned pregnancies alone would make an opt-in system worth considering.

 

[Fiona]

Is that the mischief you are trying to fix? Much less draconian methods seem to work very well in Holland and other countries. I certainly don't think you can justify it on that basis

 

[Darth Rotor]

This sounds like an example of a problem that the proposed system would fix. I assume that if you and the father were sterile (like everyone else), and had to apply for a parent's license before you could get pregnant, then you would have not have ended up as a single mom at 18, correct? You would have had your daughter later, with a man who would be responsible for her.
Again, I feel the elimination of unplanned pregnancies alone would make an opt-in system worth considering.

Wrapping the rascal is cheaper and less risky.

DR

 

[Ravynn123]

This sounds like an example of a problem that the proposed system would fix. I assume that if you and the father were sterile (like everyone else), and had to apply for a parent's license before you could get pregnant, then you would have not have ended up as a single mom at 18, correct? You would have had your daughter later, with a man who would be responsible for her.
Again, I feel the elimination of unplanned pregnancies alone would make an opt-in system worth considering.

I don't see forced sterilization has a fix to anything. What would have been a fix for my situation are laws that don't allow for dead beat parents. I did meet a man later in life and we got married and then had a son. Guess what we got divorced after 14 years. So then we were both single parents. How does your little system account for that? Even if your little idea was put into practice what is to say that the parents would even stay together? What would be the resolution for that? There are plenty of single parents out there that were married and then they divorced and guess what? Dead beat parents not only come about because of unplanned unmarried pregnancies but also from divorce? What would the solution be then????

 

[Fiona]

Retrospective abortion???

 

[AvalonXQ]

I did meet a man later in life and we got married and then had a son. Guess what we got divorced after 14 years. So then we were both single parents. How does your little system account for that? Even if your little idea was put into practice what is to say that the parents would even stay together? What would be the resolution for that? There are plenty of single parents out there that were married and then they divorced and guess what? Dead beat parents not only come about because of unplanned unmarried pregnancies but also from divorce? What would the solution be then????

Then at least we would know that both parents consented to be parents and were elligible (under whatever standards were set) to do the job. Sure, divorce could still break open households -- but the addition of forethought and deliberate choice into family planning would certainly help rather than hurt the situation.

 

[Ravynn123]

Then at least we would know that both parents consented to be parents and were elligible (under whatever standards were set) to do the job. Sure, divorce could still break open households -- but the addition of forethought and deliberate choice into family planning would certainly help rather than hurt the situation.

It still puts children in a single parent environment and thus increase the need for some of these children to be on welfare. Not to mention since the increase of divorce has risen more and more children are in single parent homes not because of unwed pregnancies but because of divorce. So as long as the parents where licensed to have the children then after that all bets are off and it doesn't matter? How is that a solution? You still have the same problem?

 

[AvalonXQ]

It still puts children in a single parent environment and thus increase the need for some of these children to be on welfare. Not to mention since the increase of divorce has risen more and more children are in single parent homes not because of unwed pregnancies but because of divorce.

I agree that parenting licenses, by themselves, won't automatically solve the problems associated with marital separations and single-parent homes (unless one of the conditions of jointly applying for a parenting license is a binding commitment to raise the kid jointly).

 

[Ravynn123]

I think I was clear in saying that no one has a right.
But I agree that, like anything else in society, it is important for us to administrate our duties fairly.
The model I'd like to propose is the following one (and I agree that we do not yet have the technology to implement it, but we are close). Each individual is sterilized before fertility. To have a child, you have to apply much the way we apply for a driver's license. You have to show the completion of a parenting course and agree to the financial burden of a child.
A background check is performed to determine that the parents in question are a) not convicted of certain serious crimes (like child abuse), b) not currently receiving government welfare (presumptively able to pay for the child). Then you can have a child, either by temporarily reversing the sterility procedure (removing a block, etc) or through a simple in vitro implantation using gametes removed earlier and held in trust by the government, whatever's easiest.
The prevention of unintended pregnancies alone would be a major boon for society.

According to Custodial Mothers and Fathers and Their Child Support: 2005, released by the U.S. Census Bureau in August, 2007, there are approximately 13.6 million single parents in the United States today, and those parents are responsible for raising 21.2 million children (approximately 26% of children under 21 in the U.S. today).

So what's the "average" single parent really like? According to the U.S. Census Bureau...
She is a Mother:

* Approximately 84% of custodial parents are mothers, and
* 16% of custodial parents are fathers

She is Divorced or Separated:
Of the mothers who are custodial parents:

* 44% are currently divorced or separated
* 33% have never been married
* 22% are married (In most cases, these numbers represent women who have remarried.)
* 1% were widowed

Of the fathers who are custodial parents:

* 57% are divorced or separated
* 24% are currently married (In most cases, these numbers represent men who have remarried.)
* 18% have never married
* 1% were widowed

She is Employed:

* 79% of custodial single mothers are gainfully employed

50% work full time, year round
29% work part-time or part-year

* 92% of custodial single fathers are gainfully employed

74% work full time, year round
18% work part-time or part-year

She and Her Children Do Not Live in Poverty:

* 27.7% of custodial single mothers and their children live in poverty
* 11.1% of custodial single fathers and their children live in poverty

She Does Not Receive Public Assistance:

* 31% of all single parents receive public assistance
* Only 6% of single parents receive TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families)

http://singleparents.about.com/od/legalissues/p/portrait.htm

 

[jadey]

May I ask if you have been voluntarily sterilised, AvalonXQ?

I got snipped after my second child.

I can't figure out what the end goal is here either. I've got nothing against promoting fewer children and responsible parenting, but forced sterilization just seems way over the top.

 

[Ravynn123]

I agree that parenting licenses, by themselves, won't automatically solve the problems associated with marital separations and single-parent homes (unless one of the conditions of jointly applying for a parenting license is a binding commitment to raise the kid jointly).

Ok how will you enforce this commitment to raise the kid jointly?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Ok how will you enforce this commitment to raise the kid jointly?

Good question.

 

[AWPrime]

Never is a long time, but I tend to agree. Again, the solution would be to take the child away rather than sterilize the person, though.

Replace 'rather than' with 'and'.