remote reiki

[Badger]

Real or not, it was just a belief.

I sure could use that "start another thread" button rather than derailing this thread, but here goes anyway:

This statement really grates on me. To me, it's an excuse to be stupid or ignorant. It seems to be an excuse to absolve oneself of responsibility.

You might as well say "It's too hard to think. I just want to stumble through life like a fool, following whatever whim strikes my fancy, no matter who it affects."

 

[MoonDragn]

I have posted a similar viewpoint in the atheist thread but the point is this : When it is a belief, its something you want to believe to be true whether or not it is true is irrelevant. Just like people who want to believe in god.

To say it is stupid or ignorant is to say that all people who believe in God are stupid and ignorant.

Do people who believe in god " stumble through life like a fool, following whatever whim strikes my fancy, no matter who it affects."

Your generalizations really are not very effective nor logical.

 

[Bronze Dog]

I have posted a similar viewpoint in the atheist thread but the point is this : When it is a belief, its something you want to believe to be true whether or not it is true is irrelevant. Just like people who want to believe in god.

To say it is stupid or ignorant is to say that all people who believe in God are stupid and ignorant.

Do people who believe in god " stumble through life like a fool, following whatever whim strikes my fancy, no matter who it affects."

Your generalizations really are not very effective nor logical.

Your straw man isn't very effective or logical either. (Assuming I've read Badger's post correctly.)

"It's just my opinion" or "It's just my belief" is an implied statement that you're abandoning science and logic. Whether Reiki works or not is something in the realm of fact vs. fiction. It is not a matter of opinion. We find the answer by scientific methods, not by unsubstantiated assertions.

 

[MoonDragn]

Yes your assessment is correct if I wanted to prove that reiki existed.

However I posted an opinion in this post and was jumped all over for stating an opinion about a personal belief.

Think what it would be like if you said that you believed in god and someone jumped on your reasons for believing in god. Its none of their business.

Just like my personal beliefs has no room for discussion in this thread. I merely pointed out my personal beliefs and stated the possibilities. I was trying to be objective but I find people love to jump to conclusions in this forum without bothering with the context in which a statement was made.

 

[Bronze Dog]

Yes your assessment is correct if I wanted to prove that reiki existed.

However I posted an opinion in this post and was jumped all over for stating an opinion about a personal belief.

Think what it would be like if you said that you believed in god and someone jumped on your reasons for believing in god. Its none of their business.

Just like my personal beliefs has no room for discussion in this thread. I merely pointed out my personal beliefs and stated the possibilities. I was trying to be objective but I find people love to jump to conclusions in this forum without bothering with the context in which a statement was made.

"Jumped on your reasons"... interesting way to say "criticize". Look at the forum you're on. This is a skeptic forum. Skeptics criticize bad logic when it shows up. It's called "argument" and "discussion." If you can't handle that, why are you posting?

If you post something online in a public forum, it's everyone's business.

Yes, sometimes I miss out on context, but fallacious arguments are still fallacious arguments.

 

[c4ts]

The ball is red.

MOONDRAGON: In my opinion, the ball is yellow. It is my personal belief.

 

[MoonDragn]

So it is ok for me to criticize your religion then? Because personally I think the whole bible was made up and that for even an inaccurate account of history it is full of fallacies.

 

[Bronze Dog]

So it is ok for me to criticize your religion then?

Of course.

 

[c4ts]

So it is ok for me to criticize your religion then? Because personally I think the whole bible was made up and that for even an inaccurate account of history it is full of fallacies.

You're finally starting to get it. Beliefs and opinions can and will be questioned, because they are not facts.

 

[ernon]

Your straw man isn't very effective or logical either. (Assuming I've read Badger's post correctly.)

"It's just my opinion" or "It's just my belief" is an implied statement that you're abandoning science and logic. Whether Reiki works or not is something in the realm of fact vs. fiction. It is not a matter of opinion. We find the answer by scientific methods, not by unsubstantiated assertions.

I have to agree with BronzeDog, either Reiki works or it doesn't. There is no component of belief to Reiki, at least not in the form descended from Dr. Usui, regardless of what crap people try to associate with it.

MoonDragn,
Don't get upset, just remember when you post here not all are skeptics, quite a few individuals are full blown cynics; though I am not accusing anyone specific of being a cynic.

How about visiting the original topic again...remote Reiki.

I have not had a convincing demonstration of this part of Reiki. I tried it on three people. One claimed he felt it and his condition did improve; two others said they didn't feel it, one of them improved and the other didn't. I realize three people does not a scientific group make, I just haven't had the time or opportunity to experiment with this long distance aspect any other times, though I did have an opportunity this weekend for a good pain removal experiment.

I had the first sitting for a detailed tattoo I'm getting on my upper arm (shoulder to elbow). I used Reiki during the session and was able to stay completely calm and relaxed throughout the 2 1/2 hours it took to do the outline (still have five hours of chair time left). The artist commented at end that he was surprised my arm had remained perfectly relaxed throughout; especially since this is my first tattoo and I have no experience with the pain involved. I also used Reiki afterwards to speed healing. It has not hurt, even one bit since the session finished, there is very little redness and no swelling. During the session, it hurt, but not terribly bad and I was able to distance myself from the pain enough to laugh at the DVD I was watching while he worked.

Friends who have tattoos are amazed there is almost no redness and no soreness, they ALL experienced those things. They couldn't even comfortably touch their tattoo for a couple of days afterwards, I could and did touch mine immediately afterwards; no pain and still none two days later. It looks completely healed, no scabbing even, but it is still early so I'll give it a week to see if scabbing appears.

I am not drawing any conclusions yet, but it just adds to my list of anecdotal evidence (yes I know that's what my personal experiences are) that point to something really going on in Reiki. So far I have had successes in relieving: pain of arthritis, menstrual cramps, back aches, strained muscles, a strained tendon and various first and second degree burns. (I have first aid training so I did properly treat the second degree burn first and then attempt pain removal). I don't go looking for these things, the people around me have had them and asked me to see if I could make them feel better. I have always said, "Well lets see, but I'm not promising anything." I have had no 'failures' when dealing with people face to face, though there has been differing time intervals between 'treatment' and their feeling 'healed' ranging from a minute to overnight.

I can't say with any certainty exactly WHAT is happening, but if I continue to get the positive results that I have been getting, up close and personal, then I will continue to help those that ask me.

The referee is still out on the distance aspect. One out of three is not convincing, even though the one that was successful was a friend with pretty severe pain in healing from a stomach bypass operation. The other 'success' didn't feel anything happening so she could have just felt better on her own and Reiki had nothing to do with it. Even my friend who swears I relieved his surgery pain, might have simply felt better in the morning on his own.

I would love to find a definitive answer as to what I am experiencing. Whether it is the Reiki or not, something appears to be happening beyond coincidence and random chance.

Scott

 

[MoonDragn]

I also happen to believe some of the skeptics here are complete morons. People who hide behind these technical terms of logic in a failed attempt to feel superior. Most probably have no control or direction in their life and troll these boards looking for something to do. When something is neither proven or disproven it should be intellectually processed and examined closely to see what is or is not there. Obviously this simple process has been uniquely overlooked by most of the skeptics as they jump straight from oh other people say it doesn't work therefore it doesn't work. How about YOU try it personally sometimes and formulate a objective opinion instead of blowing smoke out of your rears?

Angry? I'm not at all angry. My beliefs are firmly rooted and unless I see concrete proof disproving my beliefs I keep my mind open. I live a spiritual and emotionally balanced life and am never unhappy. I think most of you WISH you could be like me.

 

[Bronze Dog]

I also happen to believe some of the skeptics here are complete morons. People who hide behind these technical terms of logic in a failed attempt to feel superior.

I use those terms because I can't think of any other way of expressing such simple concepts without insulting my opponent's intelligence.

Example: "Ad Homenim" could also be described as "Calling Bobby a doodie-head doesn't let you win the argument."

Most probably have no control or direction in their life and troll these boards looking for something to do.

Speaking of ad homenim...

When something is neither proven or disproven it should be intellectually processed and examined closely to see what is or is not there.

One of the key reasons we have the Randi Challenge. If it's there, we can test for it. Unfortunately, believers are seldom interested in testing.

Obviously this simple process has been uniquely overlooked by most of the skeptics as they jump straight from oh other people say it doesn't work therefore it doesn't work.

You haven't read anything we've said, have you? It's the absence of evidence that makes us doubt. We're open to evidence, but believers aren't interested in providing any.

How about YOU try it personally sometimes and formulate a objective opinion instead of blowing smoke out of your rears?

An unblinded, uncontrolled study of infinitesimal size (1 subject)? Not convincing, even if it seems to work.






I have this terrible feeling of deja vu...

My beliefs are firmly rooted and unless I see concrete proof disproving my beliefs I keep my mind open.

You're doing it the wrong way: You don't believe in something until you have evidence. Otherwise you're likely going to rationalize any failure of your beliefs by saying things like "Oh, Reiki doesn't work under a full moon. It doesn't work around large amounts of metal. It doesn't work when the person resists." We're very open minded: We only need one replicable incident of it working. If you assume it works beforehand, you'd need us to perform the impossible by disproving every instance where it appeared to work.

I live a spiritual and emotionally balanced life and am never unhappy. I think most of you WISH you could be like me.

I'd rather be happy than right... and thankfully, it seems I'm often both.

 

[MoonDragn]

You assume that you are right, without proof. Don't do it what way? Who made up the rules on belief? Something is happening, I experienced something unusual therefore I have belief in it. If you doubt it, then prove it to yourself. Don't ask me to prove it for you. It is up to you to prove or disprove your doubt because it has nothing to do with me. I'm not the one that is making claims that I can perform this ability like a lightswitch turning it on or off.

ad homenim? Alot of you seem to be using it alot to insult people that post here. Like pot calling the kettle black, you're doing the very things you accuse other people of. I learned those logic terms like back in high school. Yes I can go look them up but i have no real desire to.

As for the Randi challenge. Yes thats what they are here for, to prove or disprove something. If you would like someone to prove that reiki works, go find a reiki practitioner who will agree to the test. I never claimed what I did was reiki, therefore, I disqualify for your test period.

If you did not get that with all the various posts I've put here. Then not only can't you understand english, you can't read either. Oops did I use Ad homenim again?

 

[Bronze Dog]

Like all assumptions, mine is tenative. That's how science works. Believers have given me no evidence to challenge that assumption. We've given them opportunity after opportunity, and they've always failed to take advantage of it.

ad homenim? Alot of you seem to be using it alot to insult people that post here. Like pot calling the kettle black, you're doing the very things you accuse other people of. I learned those logic terms like back in high school. Yes I can go look them up but i have no real desire to.

So, pointing out a fowl play is fowl play?

As for the Randi challenge. Yes thats what they are here for, to prove or disprove something. If you would like someone to prove that reiki works, go find a reiki practitioner who will agree to the test.

Well, we've been trying. Until they pass, or present other evidence worthy of consideration, we're justified in not believing.

If you did not get that with all the various posts I've put here. Then not only can't you understand english, you can't read either. Oops did I use Ad homenim again?

Your position on Reiki isn't relevant. You're still fallacious.

 

[dogjones]

"So, pointing out a fowl play is fowl play?"

You're just being chicken.

 

[Bronze Dog]

Oops. Foul play. I'll go bap myself with a rolled-up newspaper, now.

 

[casebro]

, with much trimming:
So far I have had successes in relieving: pain of arthritis, menstrual cramps, back aches, strained muscles, a strained tendon and various first and second degree burns..

I can't say with any certainty exactly WHAT is happening, but if I continue to get the positive results that I have been getting, up close and personal, then I will continue to help those that ask me.

Scott

All of these minor pains are exactly what is most susceptible to Placebo or self-hypnosis. Self-hypnosis requires concentration. If some concept of "energy flow" helps you to concentrate your own bio-feedback, wouldn't the biofeedback without the WOO be more direct? Sort of like enhancing the placebo effect without needing sugar pills?

I know some of you feel self-hypnosis is WOO itself. But I am a believer, and have used it for pain relief as well as memory improvement ( a little relaxation and I could remember the combination to a safe that I hadn't opened in 6 years, couldn't open it 20 minutes earlier, neither could my brother). Didn't Randi use it to relax while locked in an airtight coffin for a couple hours?

Personally, I'd rather think that my own "healing powers" come from within ME, not from some metaphysical allusion to a mythical "greater power".

 

[ernon]

All of these minor pains are exactly what is most susceptible to Placebo or self-hypnosis. Self-hypnosis requires concentration. If some concept of "energy flow" helps you to concentrate your own bio-feedback, wouldn't the biofeedback without the WOO be more direct? Sort of like enhancing the placebo effect without needing sugar pills?

I know some of you feel self-hypnosis is WOO itself. But I am a believer, and have used it for pain relief as well as memory improvement ( a little relaxation and I could remember the combination to a safe that I hadn't opened in 6 years, couldn't open it 20 minutes earlier, neither could my brother). Didn't Randi use it to relax while locked in an airtight coffin for a couple hours?

Personally, I'd rather think that my own "healing powers" come from within ME, not from some metaphysical allusion to a mythical "greater power".

Good points, however, I am familiar with self-hypnosis and this is different. Self hypnosis requires some concentration and inner focus, Reiki does not. I can talk, watch a movie, anything, while doing Reiki, my activity level does not effect it. The same can not be said of self-hypnosis.

I do believe the mind can accelerate the bodies natural healing processes and the mind can control how the body reacts to certain stimuli. Anyone can do this and it's not an 'ability' or WOO, it's just takes a bit of practice. In my experience Reiki is different from this too.

One other point, I have not stated I believe Reiki is coming from "a mythical greater power". Reiki does not include a belief in God and I am not a religious person (aside from my belief in the FSM- RAmen). I don't know what Reiki is, except something that so far has worked quite well for me.

I agree with your statement about minor pains, which is why I am still keeping an open mind while I experiment. I am very aware of the placebo effect, especially on minor aches and pains. However, I have not limited my experiments to minor pains.

Orthopedic surgery is usually very painful and requires strong pain relievers afterwards. I can only compare three different major surgeries I have had. The last one, (thumb fused) was particularly painful and caused me a lot of distress even when I was fully 'doped up', a condition that is not conducive to working. Since I could not afford to take months off to recuperate, a friend at work (who I didn't know was a level 4 Reiki Master) offered to give me a treatment. It greatly reduced the pain; enough that I felt a great weight had been lifted from my shoulders and I could relax. I don't know how many of you have been at that pain level before, but I would have gladly cut the thumb off, if it would have stopped the pain.

That was my intro to Reiki. I inquired and she offered to teach me so I could do it myself. Having an open, experimental mind, I figured I had nothing to loose but the pain and that has been the case with me. I was able to manage my pain successfully and fully eliminate any of the pain killers. For me that was huge! The other surgeries almost got me hooked on Percodan.

I am very interested in what is happening with Reiki, since there seems to be some sort of effect happening. If it turns out it's just an ability to reliably induce the placebo effect in people it would still be useful as a substitute for Tylenol.

Scott

 

[casebro]

Good points, however, I am familiar with self-hypnosis and this is different. Self hypnosis requires some concentration and inner focus, Reiki does not. I can talk, watch a movie, anything, while doing Reiki, my activity level does not effect it. The same can not be said of self-hypnosis.

(snip)
Scott

So, how is Reiki different from SH? Aside from getting better/faster with practise? Subjects given placebos don't need any concentration either...they just get better. Since biofeedback takes place at a subconscious level anyhow, it won't matter how the suggestion is implanted- Remote Reiki ought to work as well as Near Reiki, ,as well as laying-on-of-the-hands, which ought to work as well as burning bees-wax candles in a closet, all the same as "watch-the-watch"....

I said "mythical greater power", I was comparing my 'inner' healing power to an 'outside' source, like your Reiki So, tell me how you think 'your' Reiki works? Where does the mythical energy come from? What do you actually accomplish different from SH?

 

[ernon]

I said "mythical greater power", I was comparing my 'inner' healing power to an 'outside' source, like your Reiki So, tell me how you think 'your' Reiki works? Where does the mythical energy come from? What do you actually accomplish different from SH?

Unlike you, I have not yet reached the conclusion that Reiki comes from an 'outside source'.

Dr. Usui's Reiki, (as opposed to mine), works very well for me as far as pain removal goes. As to the mechanism it does this by, I have no idea and am open to serious suggestions. Have any besides placebo effect, self-hypnosis or self-delusion?

I don't believe in mythical energy so I can't answer that one. I think I have already stated I don't know what is going on with Reiki, which is why I continue to experiment with it; I would like to find out. I can directly experience the effects. I was brought up believing that all effects must have logical causes. I am searching for the logical cause. Woo doesn't do it for me.

What do I accomplish? Long term pain relief without taking drugs. Self-hypnosis may work temporarily or in the near term for some people, but for me at least, it was not a viable solution for long term pain management.

BTW, if you think I am here to sell Reiki, you are mistaken. I have no vested interest in Reiki, nothing to sell , no classes to teach and no benefit dervied from inducing people to believe. I have not and will never, make a dime off it. If I was a huckster I would starve.

The subject came up on the board and since I have some direct experience with it, I simply thought I would share what I have found in my experiments; not all of which had favorable outcomes. If I were here to tout Reiki, bringing up the failures is hardly the way to go about it. I am just a curious, long time experimenter looking for logical reasons for the effects I have directly experienced and those of the people I have 'treated'. I can't speak to anyone elses experience with Reiki or to the dogma they may attach to it.