Religious free will and predestination

[RandFan]

We are here for but a brief period of time. Perhaps suffering is the best thing for us?

Perhaps, do you own a hair shirt?

Suffering can be good for us. I wouldn't hit myself in the head with a hammer for personal growth.

 

[uruk]

Yet what if we were very much like the sons and daughters of God (as the Bible seems to suggest) and were all a part of His extended family? We have the capacity to replicate ourselves, why should that exclude God's ability to do so?

Whaaa? Are we talking about the same thing? You seem to on different tangent there.

 

[Iacchus]

Whaaa? Are we talking about the same thing? You seem to on different tangent there.

How so? We're talking about free will. If God has free will, why shouldn't His progeny have free will as well?

 

[Iacchus]

Perhaps, do you own a hair shirt?

Suffering can be good for us. I wouldn't hit myself in the head with a hammer for personal growth.

So, is it possible that that which is without free will can suffer? I don't see how. Without the ability to suffer pain, what lessons would there be to learn? Why invest in those things (or not) which are designed to ease our suffering?

 

[uruk]

How so? We're talking about free will. If God has free will, why shouldn't His progeny have free will as well?

If god knows everything then he knows everything we will do. every choice we will make from the time he created us. In essence, he made us with pre-built choices. That's pre- determination, not free will. From our perspective, we have free will because we don't know what our choices will be untill we make them. But god already knows. When he made us the choices are are already known. From god's perspective were just following a script. Like watching a play or show that you've written. This does exclude god from making interventions, but because of his omnicience any consequences would already be known and the changed script would be followed. (come to think of it god's omnicience would mean that god would already have known any changes he was going to make and just made them at the begining. Come to think of it, this logical loop just shows how illogical omnicence can be)

So for free will (with a god) to be true free will (even from god's perspective) god cannot know what choices we will make in advance. And if there is something that god cannot know, then god cannot be omnicient. That was the point of my post. True free will and an omnicient god are incompatable.

If, as you say, we are god's children. ( although i still don't understand where the "replication" applies) god's children cannot have free will if god already knows in advance what choices we will make.

 

[uruk]

So, is it possible that that which is without free will can suffer? I don't see how.

If that is it's destiny to suffer.
If you have no choice but to suffer, you will suffer. Lesson learned or not is irrelevent in non-free will. your path is laid out.

 

[jmercer]

Pahansiri - I'm sorry, but I have to bow out of this thread. While I enjoyed our debate, I'm too busy at work and at home to give our discussions the attention they deserve, especially given your sincerity on the matter. (One of my critical managers has left our company and I'm now running their entire area plus my normal responsibilities until I replace them.)

Rather than provide you with half-responses or poorly thought out ones, I'm going to defer the topic until another time.

Sorry about this.

 

[Iacchus]

If god knows everything then he knows everything we will do.

But doesn't that mean God knows what God will do as well? It has to, if He knows what we're going to do.

 

[uruk]

But doesn't that mean God knows what God will do as well? It has to, if He knows what we're going to do.

Then what does that say about god's free will? Are his actions also predestined?

 

[Iacchus]

Then what does that say about god's free will? Are his actions also predestined?

Beats me? I think the problem is that we're trying to contrast the finite with that which is infinite. It's also kind of hard to imagine God as nothing more than just an algorithm.

 

[Pahansiri]

Pahansiri - I'm sorry, but I have to bow out of this thread. While I enjoyed our debate, I'm too busy at work and at home to give our discussions the attention they deserve, especially given your sincerity on the matter. (One of my critical managers has left our company and I'm now running their entire area plus my normal responsibilities until I replace them.)

Rather than provide you with half-responses or poorly thought out ones, I'm going to defer the topic until another time.

Sorry about this.

Hello my friend.

No problem, I also enjoyed it and also like you are busy, more so now that it is spring here and I have a new deck to build..lol

Love to garden and that is almost ready too.

Be well as I said I respect you and your beliefs. I hope you refill that postion.

 

[Pahansiri]

But doesn't that mean God knows what God will do as well? It has to, if He knows what we're going to do.

I believe that is his point, if he what I will do, not believing in him and so my last stop is hell then just cut to the chase. Why the silly game.

If he knows a rapist will be a rapist may as well save suffering of the innocent and either just don’t make this guy or just pass go right to the hot zone…

That is right the girl to be raped and murdered needed to learn a valuable life (ending) lesson

 

[Iacchus]

That is right the girl to be raped and murdered needed to learn a valuable life (ending) lesson

Actually, for her sake, it's probably better that she was also murdered. Then she wouldn't have to suffer a lifetime of trauma of getting over it (the rape), so she could get to heaven that much more quickly.

 

[Pahansiri]

Actually, for her sake, it's probably also better that she was murdered. Then she wouldn't have to suffer a lifetime of trauma of getting over it (the rape), so she could get to heaven that much more quickly.

Good Idea we just kill everyone right now and cut to the chase.. GREAT idea...lol

 

[Iacchus]

Good Idea we just kill everyone right now and cut to the chase.. GREAT idea...lol

Albeit it's our bitterness, which stems from suffering, that paves the way to hell. This is how we promote suffering, is through our bitterness.

 

[Pahansiri]

Albeit it's our bitterness, which stems from suffering, that paves the way to hell. This is how we promote suffering, is through our bitterness.

another great plan by this all loving all knowing being/God.. Allow Innocent people to be harmed and suffer from this harm, human nature will cause bitterness in them for which the loving God sends them to hell to again suffer this time for ever… GREAT plan, talk about a loving God, a father a protector.

Why am I not in worship of this being??

A father allows a rapist into his house knowing he would rape his young daughter. He stands by and watches the rape. His daughter becomes first depressed then bitter. The father then beats here every day for being bitter about her rape.

 

[Iacchus]

another great plan by this all loving all knowing being/God.. Allow Innocent people to be harmed and suffer from this harm, human nature will cause bitterness in them for which the loving God sends them to hell to again suffer this time for ever… GREAT plan, talk about a loving God, a father a protector.

Why am I not in worship of this being??

A father allows a rapist into his house knowing he would rape his young daughter. He stands by and watches the rape. His daughter becomes first depressed then bitter. The father then beats here every day for being bitter about her rape.

Yet if there was only one color possible for us to see, what you apparently have mistaken for "the good," we would all be blind.

Do you know what the opposite of being bitter is by the way? Perhaps this is the lesson we should learn?

 

[Pahansiri]

Yet if there was only one color possible for us to see, what you apparently misconstrue as "the good," we would all be blind.

No no I think it is good that people are hurt, beaten, tortured, raped, I think birth defects are a good thing an dearth quakes and such well I just love them.. No you are right it is all great stuff your God is a great loving God..


Alos no if there were one color to see, we would see that color. What part of " can see" do you believe means Not see?

 

[Iacchus]

Alos no if there were one color to see, we would see that color. What part of " can see" do you believe means Not see?

Well certainly we would not be able to distinguish between one thing and the next if it were all the same color. Our eyes would be totally useless in that regard.

 

[Pahansiri]

Well certainly we would not be able to distinguish between one thing and the next if it were all the same color. Our eyes would be totally useless in that regard.

No no I think it is good that people are hurt, beaten, tortured, raped, I think birth defects are a good thing an dearth quakes and such well I just love them.. No you are right it is all great stuff your God is a great loving God..

All that stuff is good, well as long as it does not happen to you.

What was the life lesson the raped and murdered girl learned? And the 26,000 people who starved to death today after months of suffering, I forgot what it was you said they were learning from this great gift?


I am sure you will answer, if you have one.