Religious free will and predestination

[Pahansiri]

Ok, I will try to explain this. We are finite creatures with limitted knowledge. God, if one exists, is infinite and possesses all knowledge.

Thus there is an unbridgable knowledge gap between us and god.

I understand what you are saying my point is that would be a blind faith also I do not believe it is logical to believe that because God kills there is a good reason. That would be a fear based belief.

Think of some instructor or book that you tried your best to understand, but just couldn't. The material was simply too advanced for you at your current level of knowledge.

But if the book said in simple words don’t kill then goes on in very advanced terms telling how to kill it would be illogical.

Now imagine god who knows everything every human has ever known, plus infinitely more. This entity is so advanced that he can create entire worlds, ecosystems and the rules that govern them 'invisibly'.

Now imagine how hard it would be understanding this god when he lectured you on ethics or physics. Not only would you not understand the lesson, it is unlikely you(or anyone else) would ever be capable of advancing to the point where it became comprehensible.

When he said in easy terms “ don’t kill” then went on to kill millions I would think he was a little meaningless being not worthy of respect.

Again, not saying I believe any of this, but I think that what I have said is logically deduced if we assume the existence of an omniscient being.

The finite cannot hope to ever comprehend the infinite.

But one can think logically. I have a friend that spent time with a Buddhist monk who lived alone in meditation most of his life. Had little education did not know the earth was round and did not care. My friend graduated college as 13 and med school at 18 she said this man was the most advanced man she had ever meet.

I know many intelligent people who are not very smart.

 

[jmercer]

Good thread... and it's entertaining to see an atheist arguing as an apolgist, not to mention doing a great job of it, too!

I've made this point in another thread, but it's worth making here again - death means the end to us, but God may simply not view it that way. Granted, we view it with anguish and pain; but if you believe in (pick most any religion), then you are told that death is not the end. Therefore - assuming a given religion speaks for God - He has already told people to chill about death. If we ignore that and choose to freak out, that's our problem and not God's.

Regarding God's intervention to prevent things like murder, rape, child molestation, etc... if He starts interfering, when does He stop? Does he start handling domestic disputes? Sibling rivalries? Jaywalking?

And if God - who apparently can get His way anytime He wants - starts to interfere, we all become God-puppets. Certainly not a desirable condition, IMHO.

The bottom line is that WE are capable of dealing with these issues, and blaming God for not doing it for us is simply shifting the responsibility.

Good thread, let's keep going!

 

[RussDill]

The very moment God conceives of telling you about your future, that future would change necessarily - Personally, I see omnipotence and omniscience as incompatible anyway, and free will is incompatible with either.

Might it keep changing then until it reached some equilibrium? Like "sit around all day and wonder how god got me this letter, and why I'm sitting around all day"

 

[Z]

Might it keep changing then until it reached some equilibrium? Like "sit around all day and wonder how god got me this letter, and why I'm sitting around all day"

I don't think so - there's a mathematical/symbolic way to explain why not, but I'm not versed enough in the linguistics/symbolics required to communicate it.

But basically - let's see if I can hash this out - if A represents current state, and Z represents potential future state, then awareness of Z causes a potential alteration in distance A-Z, where an equilibrium might form half-way at (let's call it) M; however, this new equalibrium interacts with state A in the same manner, settling at, say, H; and so on and so forth, potentially ad-infinitum.

That's a very, VERY poorly worded explanation - I'm terrible with language, and what I see is purely symbolic, so putting it to words is pretty darned hard. Sorry.

 

[Pahansiri]

Greetings jmercer

I've made this point in another thread, but it's worth making here again - death means the end to us, but God may simply not view it that way.

Here I am debating looking at the situation testing the God based belief.

I as a Buddhist do not fear death in any fashion and find it silly to fear reality, what is born dies. I believe the body dies but the mind is basically energy and like all energy and matter simply change form never created nor destroyed.

I will also say that if after death all “we” are or seem to be fully is extinguished that is also fine as it to would be reality, it would not change how I would live and treat all living things.

I find the “ we can’t judge god or he is too smart for us so if he says causing suffering to others is bad it is and if he likes to do it well he is god and there must be a good reason” illogical and simply fear based.

Granted, we view it with anguish and pain; but if you believe in (pick most any religion), then you are told that death is not the end.

There is a great and vast chasm between a God based belief having but one short life get it right or suffer forever and say my belief and even the materialist belief.

That being a God who gives but one short life where “he” it seems has chosen to not allow all beings an even playing field. Some are born into lives of great suffering some lasting but weeks of a few years some suffer all their lives some live lives with little suffering.

Death does not really bother me it is the suffering of beings greatly so if it is a God who allows it and planes it, remember in Christianity and most God based beliefs it is believe that God chooses who will suffer i.e. be born with great disabilities for example.

One of many examples of that in the Judeo-Christian belief being Exodus 4:11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

I have used this example before. A true story. A man who was kidnapped at age 5, raped, beaten everyday, passed around and used for years in child porn films often beaten tortured and raped on film. He was a drug addict by 5 year old also used to control him better.

He as a young adult when no longer need for child porn turned out to live on the streets. He ended rapping and killing several woman.

Now he has suffered ( and his family) from age 5, will spend life behind bars until his death and then off to hell he goes.


What was the loving Gods plan here? There can billions of such situations one could give.

Therefore - assuming a given religion speaks for God - He has already told people to chill about death.

Hard to tell that to a mother holding the limp body of a child just murdered. Or having just starved to death knowing the next day another one of her children would then her husband and her to follow. Not knowing for sure if they will “make the cut” having picked or even heard about the “right” “truth”.

If we ignore that and choose to freak out, that's our problem and not God's.

There are thousands of god stories and countless books/beliefs and of each countless interpretations. I never say one that said “ chill out about death you all make it in the end”


If that where the case even, why? Why play such a silly cruel game. The belief that he wants us to learn something is illogical if he is all-powerful just place the information within, cut to the chase.

Why want some to learn more then others, why make some in a state where nothing can be learned due to birth defects, just a life of pain.

We take our young son to a children’s hospital every Sat to play with a boy there who is dying from MD. He is a lucky one as he is nearing death, his only joy is the times he gets to play like a child with my son. His family has nothing to do with him, they dumped him there. He has a short time left now and can only move his fingers to play, Play Station games.

There kids there with great birth defects who will not die until old age, they will linger in a bed for their whole life, 60-70 years of nothing but pain. What was their lesson they needed to learn?

Some like one small bay I play with when there who was beaten by his step dad shortly after birth left with one side paralyzed and great brain damage. What was his lesson he needed to learn?

Many stories. What of the 26000 that will starve to death today, process that takes months of great pain or more to happen, What was their lesson they needed to learn? What of their parents, the ones left helplessly having to watch knowing there is no water, no food there is nothing they can do to save their sweet child.

If there is a God behind this rather then natural causes and conditions he’s got some splain ta do…lol

Regarding God's intervention to prevent things like murder, rape, child molestation, etc... if He starts interfering, when does He stop? Does he start handling domestic disputes? Sibling rivalries? Jaywalking?

Intervention is not the point as he would know all this would happen long before he put into place this very flawed and unbalanced plan. The plan is poor that is the point.

A father that stands by and watches a child suffer doing nothing even with the fact he could stop it, simply because he believes “well death is nothing and he will be with God soon” is someone you would say is a moron and should be in jail.

And if God - who apparently can get His way anytime He wants - starts to interfere, we all become God-puppets. Certainly not a desirable condition, IMHO.

But you are if this God idea is true a God-puppet. He would know before he made you all you would do, it is a set thing you can do nothing to shock him. He makes you knowing you would suffer all your life that and then after death you will being to the fire and brimstone gig. Yes a very loving God.

The bottom line is that WE are capable of dealing with these issues, and blaming God for not doing it for us is simply shifting the responsibility.

How are the kids I told you about in the hospital, or the people that die from starvation or great disease or the man in the story I told you about “capable of dealing with these issues,”?


It is simple to make that statement when life is pretty good and mainly free from suffering, thus ignoring the rest of the world.

Be well.

 

[Iacchus]

But you are if this God idea is true a God-puppet. He would know before he made you all you would do, it is a set thing you can do nothing to shock him. He makes you knowing you would suffer all your life that and then after death you will being to the fire and brimstone gig. Yes a very loving God.

So, we either live in a Universe that gives a crap or, we live in a Universe that doesn't. If we don't, then why should anybody care? Why should anybody feel and/or need to experience anything?

 

[username]

I find the “ we can’t judge god or he is too smart for us so if he says causing suffering to others is bad it is and if he likes to do it well he is god and there must be a good reason” illogical and simply fear based.

And what I am trying to argue is that the belief isn't illogical nor does it have to be fear based.

First we have to begin with an assumption. Do we believe an omniscient, omnipotent creator god exists or not?

If we answer that question as 'no' then we are done, nothing more to think about.

If we answer that question as 'yes', then it is not illogical to believe the omniscient being is necessarily incomprehensible to us.

How can the finite comprehend the infinite? I used the analogy of a 2 year old and an adult to contrast their level of understanding. If there is an omniscient being the difference in level of understanding is exponentially greater between us and it than between the 2 year old and ourselves. There is nothing illogical about this, deductive reasoning is all that is required to arrive at this conclusion. The only faith based portion is believing such a diety exists.

I also do not understand why you believe such beliefs must be fear based. Certainly fear has been used by the church to keep followers loyal, but it does not follow that belief in an omniscient diety or acceptance that we can't judge him properly because we lack sufficent knowledge must have fear as a basis.

 

[uruk]

Not necessarily. God knowing something is irrelevant to our choices if we don't know what God knows about it. Let's take God out of the equation for a minute.

Wether god knows our choices is irrelevent to us because we do not know what god knows. But looking at free will and including god in the picture changes things. If god created us (as the story goes) god's omnicience would mean that god knows all the choices we will make from the moment of our creation. From god's perspective we have no free will, our choices are pre-determined.

I believe free will is limited. We are free to choose or not to choose but our choices are very limited.
Free will is like ording at a restraunt. Your free to choose what ever you want, but only what is on the menu.

 

[Mercutio]

So, we either live in a Universe that gives a crap or, we live in a Universe that doesn't. If we don't, then why should anybody care? Why should anybody feel and/or experience anything?

There is no evidence whatsoever that the universe "gives a crap". Why should we care? Because caring--about ourselves and those around us--has been an adaptive strategy for our ancestors, and those who care have reproduced more successfully than those who do not. Caring for one another, whether passed to us in our genes or in our social learning, has a utility to it. There is no need for a "caring universe" for that utility to exist. Why should anyone feel or experience? Simply because our ancestors (well back before they even evolved centralized nervous systems) which were able to utilize energy from the environment (sunlight, pressure, chemicals) in order to better survive and reproduce, were more successful than those organisms which could not take advantage of that energy. Millions of mutations later, we feel and experience because it is adaptive--more precisely, because it was adaptive to our long line of ancestors. There is no need for a caring universe for this to be the case.

You have had this explained to you before on this forum. Did you not understand it then, or have you chosen to ignore it and continue to ask questions seemingly based in ignorance?

******

Pahansiri--one of your responses refers to the "fire and brimstone gig". That, of course, presupposes a particular (type of) god(s), and need not be a legitimate argument against another definition of god.

The OP I found a little confusing; it describes a demonstration of omniscience, but then asks if this means that free-will trumps omnipotence. Nothing about the letter suggests that god forces you to do what it says, merely that it predicts your actions exactly.

Dear Merc: God here (yeah, right) You just thought "yeah, right" when you read that (oh, come on, anybody could have guessed I'd do that) and then thought "oh, come on, anybody could have guessed I'd do that" *puts letter down, in order to pull on socks to get ready for work* Now that you have your socks on and have picked up the letter again, let me tell you what it is...

Of course, a letter detailing what I will do through the day would have to take an entire day to read--and it could (in principle) predict every action--or at least seem to, as I may sometimes be reading it after the fact, so can I really know it is prediction?

*wonders what I will be doing this afternoon, skips ahead to page 127 of the letter, reads:* You just skipped ahead to what you will be doing this afternoon--didn't think I'd know that?

 

[Pahansiri]

So, we either live in a Universe that gives a crap or, we live in a Universe that doesn't. If we don't, then why should anybody care? Why should anybody feel and/or need to experience anything?

Good morning Iacchus You tell me. Then I will tell you. ( Lets see if this tactic will motivate him to answer questions and not just ask them)

 

[Iacchus]

From god's perspective we have no free will, our choices are pre-determined.

Except that by saying this, you are putting limits on that which is limitless.

 

[Iacchus]

There is no evidence whatsoever that the universe "gives a crap".

Enough said ...

 

[Pahansiri]

Hello username.

And what I am trying to argue is that the belief isn't illogical nor does it have to be fear based.

I respect that, I just do not agree.

First we have to begin with an assumption. Do we believe an omniscient, omnipotent creator god exists or not?

No, and or it is irrelevant to me for the first part but I see no evidence of such a being.

If we answer that question as 'no' then we are done, nothing more to think about.

true, of course a “NO there is not and that is fact” would be as emotion driven a response as “yes there is a God and that is a fact”

If we answer that question as 'yes', then it is not illogical to believe the omniscient being is necessarily incomprehensible to us.

making an “logical” conclusion based in no supporting facts based on a belief based on no supporting facts does not make the “logical” conclusion logical.


For example.

The 100’ invisible pink bunny exist and is a 100’ invisible pink bunny so he must be pink and really smart.

How can the finite comprehend the infinite? I used the analogy of a 2 year old and an adult to contrast their level of understanding. If there is an omniscient being the difference in level of understanding is exponentially greater between us and it than between the 2 year old and ourselves. There is nothing illogical about this, deductive reasoning is all that is required to arrive at this conclusion. The only faith based portion is believing such a diety exists.

What does this have to do with a all powerful all knowing perfect being telling smaller beings not to kill each other then the all powerful being kills. It is totally fear based to just simply say “ well he is God and perfect and we can not judge him or know his ways”



I ask but you did not answer the following.

Will you tell your 2 year old not to kill or harm another then beat him silly and kill his mother and brothers? Then say “ well I am an adult and it is not for you to judge” the child through fear will grow believing this while it has nothing to do with truth or logic.

 

[Iacchus]

Good morning Iacchus You tell me. Then I will tell you. ( Lets see if this tactic will motivate him to answer questions and not just ask them)

I'm just wondering what motivates you to complain so much. And, if there's an actual basis for it. It sounds to me like you're trying to pass off everything that goes "wrong" in life to God? If not, then why make such a big stink about it? If in fact life were "amoral," then eveything should be just fine the way it is (nothing could go wrong) and there should be nothing to complain about.

 

[Pahansiri]

I'm just wondering what motivates you to complain so much. And, if there's an actual basis for it. It sounds to me like you're trying to pass off everything that goes "wrong" in life to God? If not, then why make such a big stink about it? If in fact life were "amoral," then eveything should be just fine the way it is (nothing could go wrong) and there should be nothing to complain about.

I'm just wondering what motivates you to complain so much.

I'm just wondering what motivates you to not answer questions?

You call it complaining and that is your way of seeking to shift the burden rather then do the right thing and conduct a respectful, logical, honest and intellectual conversation.

And, if there's an actual basis for it.

Your not answering and conducting a respectful, logical, honest and intellectual conversation.

It sounds to me like you're trying to pass off everything that goes "wrong" in life to God?

Fully illogical. I no more pass off what goes wrong in life on a God then I do on the 100’ invisible pink bunny. Your statement is simply illogical.

If not, then why make such a big stink about it?

Discussion board, remember, we discuss thoughts, Ideas, beliefs, well we do, you don’t you just preach.

If in fact life were "amoral," then eveything should be just fine the way it is (nothing could go wrong) and there should be nothing to complain about.

Irrelevant to the subject and to my belief.

 

[Iacchus]

I'm just wondering what motivates you to not answer questions?

Yes, and now that the shoe is on the other foot?

You call it complaining and that is your way of seeking to shift the burden rather then do the right thing and conduct a respectful, logical, honest and intellectual conversation.

Your not answering and conducting a respectful, logical, honest and intellectual conversation.

No, the fact is, all I hear is you complaining about how much of a bastard God must be for allowing awful things to happen in life. Or, are you saying awful things do not happen in life? If so, in a Universe which obviously doesn't care, why even bring it up?

Fully illogical. I no more pass off what goes wrong in life on a God then I do on the 100’ invisible pink bunny. Your statement is simply illogical.

Discussion board, remember, we discuss thoughts, Ideas, beliefs, well we do, you don’t you just preach.

No, there is nothing illogical about it. Now, would you care to answer the question?

Irrelevant to the subject and to my belief.

Irrelevant to the subject? No. To your beliefs? Ah, I see we have another "wishful thinker" here.

 

[Pahansiri]

Yes, and now that the shoe is on the other foot?

No, the fact is, all I hear is you complaining about how much of a bastard God must be for allowing awful things to happen in life. Or, are you saying awful things do not happen in life? If so, in a Universe which obviously doesn't care, why even bring it up?

No, there is nothing illogical about it. Now, would you care to answer the question?

Irrelevant to the subject? No. To your beliefs? Ah, I see we have another "wishful thinker" here.

Yes, and now that the shoe is on the other foot?

Not at all I answered your questions, I give you respect and answer all that is asked of me I have nothing to fear or hide.

No, the fact is, all I hear is you complaining about how much of a bastard God must be for allowing awful things to happen in life.

I will ask you to show where I said that, but knowing every time I have asked you to provide proof or your allegations against me using my post as proof you, well you know never do so.

But you can not provide what does not exist, but you could be honest and admit it.

I no more blame a God for facts of life and suffering then I blame the 100’ invisible pink bunny.

Or, are you saying awful things do not happen in life? If so, in a Universe which obviously doesn't care, why even bring it up?

here allow me to again post what I said in hopes that you read it this time..lol

I said Discussion board, remember, we discuss thoughts, Ideas, beliefs, well we do, you don’t you just preach.

No, there is nothing illogical about it. Now, would you care to answer the question?

again I will post what I said in hopes you read it this time.

Fully illogical. I no more pass off what goes wrong in life on a God then I do on the 100’ invisible pink bunny. Your statement is simply illogical.

Irrelevant to the subject? No. To your beliefs? Ah, I see we have another "wishful thinker" here.

?? Wishful thinker? I am not the one who demands something is true and fact and all others wrong then refuses to prove it or answer a question, ya silly boy.

 

[Iacchus]

Fully illogical. I no more pass off what goes wrong in life on a God then I do on the 100’ invisible pink bunny. Your statement is simply illogical.

The thing is, is there such a thing as right and wrong, and how do you decide? "Who" or, "what" are you going to blame if something goes wrong? Is there any sense in blaming anybody for anything? If the Universe is amoral (without a God), what is blame?

 

[Pahansiri]

The thing is, is there such a thing as right and wrong, and how do you decide? "Who" or, "what" are you going to blame if something goes wrong? Is there any sense in blaming anybody for anything? If the Universe is amoral (without a God), what is blame?

The thing is, is there such a thing as right and wrong, and how do you decide?

I believe little is black and white for this reason in Buddhism we have precepts not commandments they are worded “ I seek to refrain from killing/ taking the life of another etc” Intention is everything for us.

The realty is you can not move through life with killing living things every second. But you can seek to avoid setting out to cause harm and suffering to another.

"Who" or, "what" are you going to blame if something goes wrong?

I do not blame anyone for anything, I can separate the act from the actor.

Is there any sense in blaming anybody for anything?

No, because no God seems to exist who would have set up this situation, thus what is, is and we can only do our best to do our best and help ease the sufferings of others where we can.

If the Universe is amoral (without a God), what is blame?

amoral means without God??LOL WOW that is self-serving.

There are/ have been billions of people who lead very moral lives and believe in no God, There are/ have been billions of people who believe in Gods and have lead lives of great evil and do so many times in the name of their God.

 

[jmercer]

Greetings jmercer

Greetings in return, Pahansiri.

Here I am debating looking at the situation testing the God based belief.

I as a Buddhist do not fear death in any fashion and find it silly to fear reality, what is born dies. I believe the body dies but the mind is basically energy and like all energy and matter simply change form never created nor destroyed.

I will also say that if after death all “we” are or seem to be fully is extinguished that is also fine as it to would be reality, it would not change how I would live and treat all living things.

Ok, thanks - this gives me some idea of your viewpoint.

I find the “ we can’t judge god or he is too smart for us so if he says causing suffering to others is bad it is and if he likes to do it well he is god and there must be a good reason” illogical and simply fear based.

"Smart" is not the issue, nor is it a word I used. "Alien" is a better word, perhaps - as in, a being that could create the cosmos is probably too alien for us to truly understand. It would be the height of folly to assume we could correctly put human interpretations on the motivations and decisions of a being of unimaginable power and knowledge, who's span of existence utterly dwarfs our own.

There is a great and vast chasm between a God based belief having but one short life get it right or suffer forever and say my belief and even the materialist belief.

That being a God who gives but one short life where “he” it seems has chosen to not allow all beings an even playing field. Some are born into lives of great suffering some lasting but weeks of a few years some suffer all their lives some live lives with little suffering.

You are assuming that God chooses everything we do - in other words, you are not only assuming an absence of free will, but you are also assuming predestination by God's decision. If you are correct (I don't think you are), then any and all discussions are utterly meaningless because we are all helpless puppets.

Death does not really bother me it is the suffering of beings greatly so if it is a God who allows it and planes it, remember in Christianity and most God based beliefs it is believe that God chooses who will suffer i.e. be born with great disabilities for example.

Balony. You are referring to beliefs that were repudiated by mainstream Christianity a long time ago. In fact, modern mainstream Judaism has also repudiated that view.

There are still cults and sects that state these things, but they are most emphatically not a part of mainstream Christianity today. I suggest that you discuss these beliefs with a Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Lutheran theologians before continuing basing your viewpoint on them. I am an active Catholic, was an active Lutheran, and went to Methodist church services for years before making any kind of commitments to anything... and I can tell you that these religions do NOT believe that God inflicts disabilities or suffering on people. These religions have come to terms with the scientific realities as they emerged and became obviously incontrovertible.

The attitudes you are describing come from a time when people were bled by leechs to let out evil vapors... when people who were sick were often thought to be possessed.

One of many examples of that in the Judeo-Christian belief being Exodus 4:11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

You can find any quote in the bible you wish to support just about any possible point of view. The entire book is full of contradictions, flaws, inconsistencies and logical errors. Taking one (or a dozen) such quotes out of context is really just cherry-picking.

Ancient Judaism (from which the OT derives) believed that afflictions such as blindness, leprosy, etc., were punishments from God for sin... and so did the authors of those books when they were written. Unless you believe the bible is 100% accurate, and truly refelcts the "word of God" in every aspect?

I have used this example before. A true story. A man who was kidnapped at age 5, raped, beaten everyday, passed around and used for years in child porn films often beaten tortured and raped on film. He was a drug addict by 5 year old also used to control him better.

He as a young adult when no longer need for child porn turned out to live on the streets. He ended rapping and killing several woman.

Now he has suffered ( and his family) from age 5, will spend life behind bars until his death and then off to hell he goes.

What was the loving Gods plan here? There can billions of such situations one could give.

First, according to Christianity, he doesn't go to hell as long as he accepts Christ as the son of God and askes for forgiveness. 100% escape clause, requiring only a moment of belief and acceptance before the end of his life.

Regarding "God's plan", again, you are falling into the view of predestination. And as I said, if God controls us, this whole discussion is meaningless... but if you believe in free will, then what was done to this poor man was a crime by humanity against humanity. God had no part in it, and we are perfectly capable of addressing these behaviors. Since we are capable of addressing this kind of abuse, why should we blame God for not intervening? Shouldn't we blame ourselves first?

Hard to tell that to a mother holding the limp body of a child just murdered. Or having just starved to death knowing the next day another one of her children would then her husband and her to follow. Not knowing for sure if they will “make the cut” having picked or even heard about the “right” “truth”.

So? Your argument is for the abolishment of all religions, including Buddhism. Frankly, the one justification for religion that can be truly cited is the comfort it gives over the death of a loved one, or the pending death of the individual.

Regarding the mother and her situation - who is at fault? Is it God, or humanity, for permitting these conditions to exist? Again, why blame God when we have all the tools and resources we need to correct the situation, but simply don't have the will to do so? Isn't it OUR responsiblity to do all that can be done before turning to God?

There are thousands of god stories and countless books/beliefs and of each countless interpretations. I never say one that said “ chill out about death you all make it in the end”

Literally, of course, you're correct. In terms of the overall message, though, you are incorrect. Just about every belief system we have been discussing has a fundamental implication that a person continues on after death. The big question seems to be "Will you be happy, or will you suffer afterwards?"

If that where the case even, why? Why play such a silly cruel game. The belief that he wants us to learn something is illogical if he is all-powerful just place the information within, cut to the chase.

Why want some to learn more then others, why make some in a state where nothing can be learned due to birth defects, just a life of pain.

Well, if you take the bible literally, we (once upon a time) had exactly that state - a state of grace... but we blew it and got tossed out.

Regarding placing information inside, etc., again, you're stating that there's no free will. If God supplied us with all knowledge (assuming we could even tolerate it!), we would simply become god-puppets.

We take our young son to a children’s hospital every Sat to play with a boy there who is dying from MD. He is a lucky one as he is nearing death, his only joy is the times he gets to play like a child with my son. His family has nothing to do with him, they dumped him there. He has a short time left now and can only move his fingers to play, Play Station games.

That sucks, and I know kids (and adults) like that, too. I admire that you and your kids get involved with people's suffering like that, and provide whatever comfort you can. That's a lot more than most people do.

My kids often visit "adult homes" for people who are too infirm with age to actually do anything. They help them with their food, play games with them, put on little shows, etc. They've been doing it for years, and I encourage it. They've also volunteered for soup kitchens and other kinds of work that makes a difference for those less fortunate.

I do my own things to help people, but it's more selective and private.

Is God responsible for the actions of the families who have abandoned these people? Or for the rest of us who walk (or drive) by while trying to ignore their existence? How about the millions of people who don't contribute to foundations dedicated to finding a cure for MS, or any number of other diseases and problems? Is that God's fault, too?

No. It's our responsiblity to act on other's suffering, and blaming God for any of this is a cop-out.

There kids there with great birth defects who will not die until old age, they will linger in a bed for their whole life, 60-70 years of nothing but pain. What was their lesson they needed to learn?

Some like one small bay I play with when there who was beaten by his step dad shortly after birth left with one side paralyzed and great brain damage. What was his lesson he needed to learn?

Many stories. What of the 26000 that will starve to death today, process that takes months of great pain or more to happen, What was their lesson they needed to learn? What of their parents, the ones left helplessly having to watch knowing there is no water, no food there is nothing they can do to save their sweet child.

If there is a God behind this rather then natural causes and conditions he’s got some splain ta do…lol

As I said prior to this, if God controls everything, then we're just meat-puppets... and God doesn't need to explain anything, because everything we do, feel and believe is utterly controlled by Him.

Intervention is not the point as he would know all this would happen long before he put into place this very flawed and unbalanced plan. The plan is poor that is the point.

A father that stands by and watches a child suffer doing nothing even with the fact he could stop it, simply because he believes “well death is nothing and he will be with God soon” is someone you would say is a moron and should be in jail.

Again, you are arguing for predestination. I don't believe in that, nor do any of the mainstream Christian religions today.

But you are if this God idea is true a God-puppet. He would know before he made you all you would do, it is a set thing you can do nothing to shock him. He makes you knowing you would suffer all your life that and then after death you will being to the fire and brimstone gig. Yes a very loving God.

How are the kids I told you about in the hospital, or the people that die from starvation or great disease or the man in the story I told you about “capable of dealing with these issues,”?

It is simple to make that statement when life is pretty good and mainly free from suffering, thus ignoring the rest of the world.

I think I answered this with my other responses above.

Be well.

You too. I respect you for caring and working toward relieving suffering... to me, that's more important than any theological or skeptical debate.

(edited to correct quoting and to clarify some poor grammar on my part.)