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Merged Relativity+ / Farsight

What? You make an electron and a positron out of a photon, they've got angular momentum and magnetic dipole moment et cetera, then you can annihilate them and get photons again. This does support the view of the electron being a self-bound photon. How can you dismiss scientific evidence so readily?

So when an electron drops to a lower orbital and a photon is emitted, where does it come from? Out of the electron? When a positron and electron collide at high speed and more than two photons are produced, where do the extra photons come from?
 

What was the point of your post?

By the way, the number of equations is not a very well-defined quantity. The set of "four" equations that are universally known as "Maxwell's equations" are really eight if you take into account the fact that two of them are spatial vectors (so 3 independent components each) and two are scalars.

Obviously one can always increase the number of equations by taking linear combinations of them (i.e. adding 0 in various forms).

One can decrease the number in the following way: arrange some set of equations so they all have the form stuff=0. That's equivalent to (stuff)2=0. Now add all the squared equations together, and you have one equation that contains all the information in the set you started with.

So you can write all the laws of physics in one equation that way.
 
No, it's an example of yours. See http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/42232
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An experiment that has nothing to do with whether anything in an electron is actually rotating. The pretty picture must have fooled you.

It's a real rotation. The evidence says so. Now stop spouting your textbook at me.
It's a QM property of a QM state that is descrived as a spin an anology to classical spin. The scientific evidence says so. Now stop spouting your ignorance of textbooks at me.
 
Farsight, science isn't just about evidence. It's about comparing a model to evidence, and about seeing which models work best. The best way to compare models to evidence is to do so mathematically, and the models that work best are generally also mathematical, as it allows them to make the most precise predictions, which allows you to put them through the most stringent tests. So we will demand mathematics, as without it your model cannot make any sufficiently powerful prediction for us to even bother looking at.
It is utterly wrong to say "we will dismiss evidence unless it is accompanied by mathematical rigor". That's not a scientific approach, it's an excuse used to cling to fallacies that are unsupported by experiment. Hence some here hold a conviction that pair production and the electron are adequately modelled, that spin is intrinsic and electrons are elementary, and that a changing electric field generates a magnetic field. Some are oblivious to the fact that mathematics cannot explain the reality that underlies mathematics. Some won't pay attention to Maxwell's original work and read about his screw mechanism and his vortexes, and some have an unshakeable belief that he wrote down four vector equations.

Essentially the only exception to this demand for quantifiable tests are models that make so grossly different predictions from the status quo that there's almost no point quantifying them, and generally given the status quo in modern science if you make a grossly different prediction about a commonly observed type of event you're probably making a grossly wrong prediction, so again we might as well not even bother.
This gets to the heart of it. It's a circular argument and a catch-22 dismissal to defend a status quo. Just like we see in a theocracy.
 
What was the point of your post?
The point was a simple demonstration that you've never read the original Maxwell. If you had, you'd know about the screw mechanism and the vortexes, and you'd know that those four "Maxwell's equations" are Heaviside's equations. So it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about.
 
In this case, pointing out that you lied is not an ad hominem...
I didn't lie, saying I did is an ad-hominem. Now you've made it clear that you've got no sincerity, and nothing to discuss, and merely seek to stifle discussion. So butt out.
 
First of all, you're still using a vague intuition for what the electron will do. In fact the electron will feel a force whose direction is very, very easy to state in vector notation---F = qE + qv x B---and which DOES NOT point in the directions indicated by your spiral; there is *never* a force in the "azimuthal" direction (orbiting the source, the direction indicated by your spiral) no matter what combination of velocities you throw in.
No there isn't. The spiral does not depict lines of force. It depicts a slice through a three-dimensional vortex that causes force.

It's pretty obvious that you're doing something wrong in your E&M physics. Again, I can't tell if you have the electron motion wrong or if you have the motion right but are attributing it to nonsensical new fields.
What are you on about? There's only one field. The electromagnetic field.

You seem to think that this nonlinear fluid-dynamics phenomenon has similar physics to E&M. I have no idea why.
Straw man. This isn't fluid dynamics. It's dynamical stress-energy.

Maxwell's Equations are unambiguously vector equations; they're just written in old-fashioned vector notation, with all of the components and derivatives written out one by one.
Go and read the original Maxwell. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations#Maxwell.27s_On_Physical_Lines_of_Force_.281861.29 for starters. And remember that I said he thought the vortexes were in the space rather than in the particles.

120px-Molecular_Vortex_Model.jpg
 
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I'll repeat, why are you posting links to search results from google? Are you expecting me to read all 753,000 results for "electron angular momentum" and then get back to you?
No, just a few. Then ask yourself how a point particle can exhibit angular momentum. Do not settle for the "intrinsic" cop-out that offers no answer. Think for yourself, don't let your text books do your thinking for you.
 
I didn't lie, saying I did is an ad-hominem. Now you've made it clear that you've got no sincerity, and nothing to discuss, and merely seek to stifle discussion. So butt out.

WP said:
An ad hominem argument has the basic form:

Person 1 makes claim X
There is something objectionable about Person 1
Therefore claim X is false

So no, calling something that you said a lie is definitely not an ad-hominem. If someone claimed something about your character, "and therefore, what you are saying is a lie", THAT would be an ad-hominem. Stop whining.
 
So when an electron drops to a lower orbital and a photon is emitted, where does it come from? Out of the electron?
No, out of the bond.

When a positron and electron collide at high speed and more than two photons are produced, where do the extra photons come from?
Out of the kinetic energy. Look at Compton scattering to understand that when the electron acquired a high speed with respect to the positron, it acquired additional action. As a result the electron stress-energy follows a helical rather than a circular path with respect to the positron. And look at pair production to understand that you can split a photon into two or more portions.
 
No, just a few. Then ask yourself how a point particle can exhibit angular momentum. Do not settle for the "intrinsic" cop-out that offers no answer. Think for yourself, don't let your text books do your thinking for you.

Ok, then why does a photon have anything to do with electromagnetism, and don't settle for the "intrinsic" cop-out that offers no answer. Or how about why a traveling photon has momentum, again, don't settle for the "intrinsic" cop-out. Or why in your theory only photons of a specific energy can perform your little dance (giving the value for the electron mass), I'd say don't do an "intrinsic" cop out here, but you claim time and again why only photons of a certain energy can do the dance, but when pressed for details, your answers always get more vague and off topic.
 
No, out of the bond.

Out of the kinetic energy. Look at Compton scattering to understand that when the electron acquired a high speed with respect to the positron, it acquired additional action. As a result the electron stress-energy follows a helical rather than a circular path with respect to the positron. And look at pair production to understand that you can split a photon into two or more portions.

Your imaginary pair production is the only method by which photons can be split into more than one photon (AFAIK). Your argument is thus circular and offers nothing.
 
An experiment that has nothing to do with whether anything in an electron is actually rotating. The pretty picture must have fooled you.
Pay attention to optical spanner, Miles Padgett of tying light in knots, and the reality of twisted electron waves, and therefore of electron orbital angular momentum.

It's a QM property of a QM state that is described as a spin an anology to classical spin. The scientific evidence says so. Now stop spouting your ignorance of textbooks at me.
Stop spouting your mystic textbook bible. The scientific evidence says it's a real rotation. That's why the electron has a magnetic dipole moment. Pay attention to that non-sequitur in the Stern-Gerlach article and the rotation in two orientations. See post #386, and this time, read it. Then think about it, then discuss it. Don't dismiss it because it doesn't fit with what your textbook told you.
 
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I didn't lie, saying I did is an ad-hominem. Now you've made it clear that you've got no sincerity, and nothing to discuss, and merely seek to stifle discussion. So butt out.
You are the one attempting to stifle discussion here. You don't like my questions so you are attempting to ignore them.

Your continued attempts to ignore my request that you actually prove your claims about Minkowski only add to the evidence that these claims are fabrications. Since you have obviously outright lied in this thread at least once, that you refuse to back up your claims suggests that these are claims that you know or suspect to be false. Only you can clear up this suspicion by actually providing evidence for your claim that Minkowski's work supports your position.
 
Pay attention to optical spanner, Miles Padgett of tying light in knots, and the reality of twisted electron waves, and therefore of electron orbital angular momentum.
This article is about interference patterns, not some bizarre theory of twisting paths for individual photons. Please show us, using the original paper, how the (mathematical) physics used supports your claim that the electron has angular momentum. Your claim that Miles Padgett supports your position looks to be a lie.
Stop spouting your mystic textbook bible. The scientific evidence says it's a real rotation. That's why the electron has a magnetic dipole moment. Pay attention to that non-sequitur in the Stern-Gerlach article and the rotation in two orientations. See post #386, and this time, read it. Then think about it, then discuss it. Don't dismiss it because it doesn't fit with what your textbook told you.
Why do you place wikipedia above physics textbooks as a source? Can you show us exactly where a popular physics textbook has the Stern-Gerlach experiment wrong? (I assume that you have one or two physics textbooks on the subject. Otherwise you wouldn't make these claims about what the textbooks say, since you would have no evidence.)
 
The point was a simple demonstration that you've never read the original Maxwell.

No, I haven't. Nor will i. Nor does what he wrote in some specific book have any relevance to my post - "Maxwell's equations" means something very specific and definite to everyone that's studied physics any time in at least the last 50 years. Apparently, that doesn't include you.

If you had, you'd know about the screw mechanism and the vortexes,

Even if there's anything like that in Maxwell - which I doubt - I couldn't care less. Maxwell was working nearly 150 years ago. I probably know more than he did about electrodynamics, and I know much more than he did about many other areas of physics.

So it's clear that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Fixed that for you.
 
No there isn't. The spiral does not depict lines of force. It depicts a slice through a three-dimensional vortex that causes force.

So: you say it's a force, but you don't have a force law for it. You say it's a vortex but you don't know what, if anything, any of the angles mean. You say it's an EM field but you've never done one sliver of an EM calculation with it, nor related it mathematically to any other EM field.

All this depicts, Farsight, is the vague mental picture that floats around in your head when you daydream about whirlpools in water and imagine that electrons are doing the same thing.

Straw man. This isn't fluid dynamics. It's dynamical stress-energy.

You're the one who keeps bringing up whirlpools in water. Those are fluid dynamics. If you don't want to talk about fluid dynamics, stop bringing them up.
 
No, just a few. Then ask yourself how a point particle can exhibit angular momentum. Do not settle for the "intrinsic" cop-out that offers no answer. Think for yourself, don't let your text books do your thinking for you.

Well its clearly not classical angular momentum. Given the maximum size of the electron and the magnitude of the spin, the electron would have to be spinning at many times the speed of light. That's all the experimental evidence you need to know that spin does not correspond to classical angular momentum.
 
No, just a few. Then ask yourself how a point particle can exhibit angular momentum. Do not settle for the "intrinsic" cop-out that offers no answer. Think for yourself, don't let your text books do your thinking for you.

Stundie?
 

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