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Reincarnation Anybody? Past lives or not?

josh3623

Thinker
josh3623
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Jul 12, 2009
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Scientific Proof of Reincarnation
Dr. Ian Stevenson's Life Work
"Either he [Dr. Stevenson] is making a colossal mistake. Or he will be known as the Galileo of the 20th century." Dr Harold Lief in the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease

About Dr. Ian Stevenson
Omni Magazine's Interview with Dr. Ian Stevenson
Sweet Swarnlata: An Example Case of Dr. Ian Stevenson's

Dr. Ian Stevenson Probably the best known, if not most respected, collection of scientific data that appears to provide scientific proof that reincarnation is real, is the life's work of Dr. Ian Stevenson. Instead of relying on hypnosis to verify that an individual has had a previous life, he instead chose to collect thousands of cases of children who spontaneously (without hypnosis) remember a past life. Dr. Ian Stevenson uses this approach because spontaneous past life memories in a child can be investigated using strict scientific protocols.

Read the full article:

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm


Hi everyone,

above is an interesting article on proof of reincarnation, I just would like to hear some opinions of the local Skeptics.

Who believes and who does not?


Thank you.
 
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Various well-known supposedly 'real' cases of reincarnation have been discussed - and dissected! - hereabouts during the years I've been here. It always turns out that there are facts that show there are other, perfectly natural explanations for these apparent cases. Where puzzling things come up, they should be first investigated as coincidences, etc.

when you consider that all children who talk about such things cannot do so until they are about two or three, by which time their brains have absorbed via their senses anabsolutely colossal amount of information then when they come out with words or sentences that adults interpret asobviously meaning this or that, well, off we go onanother 'verified' case of reincarnation!
 
Susan said it well. The reports have been examined, and there is no evidence that really stands up; nothing that can be confirmed to have happened that lacks a reasonable explanation.

Also, reincarnation is impossible. If something is impossible, but you have solid evidence that it actually happens, then go for it; that's where scientific breakthroughs come from.

If something is impossible, and all you have is vague stories, then... Not so much.
 
Whenever I see something titled 'Scientific Proof of X' then I can pretty much assume it's bunk. I doubt this is any different, particularly since your link seems to be a 15 year old interview.

Skimming some of it, his reasoning seems to be based on things like interests and aptitudes of young children and physical evidence (?) such as birthmarks or birth defects. Why would a past life leave any physical marks on a brand new body?

It sounds like someone looking for evidence where none exists, and making some leaps to try to connect things that are unconnected.
 
Hi, Josh.
Do you have any follow-up on that 15 year old interview?
 
Although reincarnation is perhaps more attractive than the Abrahamic "you get one chance, and it's Heaven or Hell, bud." approach...
Both ideas still just airily assume the existence of some sort of "soul", some non-physical something that can carry information and consciousness. How this is supposed to work is never explained or modeled. Not the slightest hint as to how something "non-material" could possibly retain information, or maintain consciousness.
 
Bikewer said:
Although reincarnation is perhaps more attractive than the Abrahamic "you get one chance, and it's Heaven or Hell, bud." approach...
Both ideas still just airily assume the existence of some sort of "soul", some non-physical something that can carry information and consciousness. How this is supposed to work is never explained or modeled. Not the slightest hint as to how something "non-material" could possibly retain information, or maintain consciousness.
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And put like that, it sounds worryingly like homeopathy. There's nothing there, but nothing remembers all this really cool stuff!

Not wanting to libel Dr Stevenson, but reading this page, which contains a short summary of his studies, he sounds pretty bonkers to me. Take this, for example:

In many cases presented by Dr. Stevenson there are also medical documents available as further proof, which are usually compiled after the death of the person. Dr. Stevenson adds that in the cases he researched and "solved" in which birthmarks and deformities were present, he didn't suppose there was any other apposite explanation than that of reincarnation. Only 30% - 60% of these deformities can be put down to birth defects which related to genetic factors, virus infections or chemical causes (like those found in children damaged by the drug Thalidomide or alcohol). Apart from these demonstrable causes, the medical profession has no other explanation for the other 40% to 70% of cases than that of mere chance. Stevenson has now succeeded in giving us an explanation of why a person is born with these deformities and why they appear precisely in that part of their body and not in another.
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So what the good doctor seems to be suggesting is because modern medical science hasn't found an explanation for these birth-marks, then they must be the result of reincarnation.

Facepalm!
facepalm.gif
 
So, a soul just keeps on keeping on? Maybe proof for this thing called a soul first?
 
Lanzy said:
So, a soul just keeps on keeping on? Maybe proof for this thing called a soul first?
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I imagine believers in this sort of thing indulge in circular thinking, Lanzy. e.g. "We know the soul exists because these children's memories are proof of reincarnation. We know that reincarnation could be possible because we have souls".

:boggled:
 
Arguably, even if you have ironclad cases of children remembering previous lives, with details that they would have had no way of knowing that can be independently verified as correct, you still haven't proven reincarnation. All you have proven is that there exists some form of anomalous, possibly supernatural means of information transfer. It could just as easily be the case that the children have developed retrocognition - they're somehow psychically seeing the past and mistaking what they're seeing for their own memories. Or they're channeling the ghosts of the people who's memories they're reporting. Or possibly some other entity was in telepathic contact with the dead people, and is now in telepathic contact with the kids and transferring the memories to them. Once you allow one supernatural explanation, you have to also consider every other equally likely supernatural explanation.

To really, truly prove reincarnation, you have to first prove the existence of a soul. Not by coming up with examples of events which could be explained by a soul, but with some kind of ironclad physical detection method, similar to how we demonstrate the existence of neutrinos or gamma rays. Then, you need to prove that souls are unique, that individual souls exist that are distinguishable from each other in some way that you can unambiguously detect. You need to develop technology to identify an individual soul, similar to how we can use DNA matching to match a biological sample to a specific person. Once you have done all that, you can then take soul-ID readings on people who are about to die, and then after they've died take soul-ID readings on newborns, and look for matches. Then, and only then, you'll have proven that reincarnation happens.
 
josh3623 said:
Dr. Ian Stevenson Probably the best known, if not most respected, collection of scientific data that appears to provide scientific proof that reincarnation is real, is the life's work of Dr. Ian Stevenson. Instead of relying on hypnosis to verify that an individual has had a previous life, he instead chose to collect thousands of cases of children who spontaneously (without hypnosis) remember a past life. Dr. Ian Stevenson uses this approach because spontaneous past life memories in a child can be investigated using strict scientific protocols.
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He was a big favourite of Interesting Ian's. Probably still is.
 
In The Skeptic's Dictionary biography of Stevenson, it gives a good critique of his work and its pitfalls. Tellingly, it also says:
... he resented being described by journalists as trying to prove reincarnation. He believed that he had produced a body of evidence for reincarnation that must be taken seriously. But he admitted that "the evidence is not flawless and it certainly does not compel such a belief. Even the best of it is open to alternative interpretations, and one can only censure those who say there is no evidence whatever."
Click to expand...
 
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Has anyone ever addressed why remembering past lives is so utterly useless? I mean, no one ever remembers a past life and then suddenly gains the ability to speak a foreign language. Or at least gain some trade skills like shoe making or carpentry. Heck, just getting to skip the whole potty training and learning to walk phase would be seriously useful!
 
josh3623 said:


Scientific Proof of Reincarnation
Dr. Ian Stevenson's Life Work
"Either he [Dr. Stevenson] is making a colossal mistake. Or he will be known as the Galileo of the 20th century." Dr Harold Lief in the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease

About Dr. Ian Stevenson
Omni Magazine's Interview with Dr. Ian Stevenson
Sweet Swarnlata: An Example Case of Dr. Ian Stevenson's

Dr. Ian Stevenson Probably the best known, if not most respected, collection of scientific data that appears to provide scientific proof that reincarnation is real, is the life's work of Dr. Ian Stevenson. Instead of relying on hypnosis to verify that an individual has had a previous life, he instead chose to collect thousands of cases of children who spontaneously (without hypnosis) remember a past life. Dr. Ian Stevenson uses this approach because spontaneous past life memories in a child can be investigated using strict scientific protocols.

Read the full article:

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm


Hi everyone,

above is an interesting article on proof of reincarnation, I just would like to hear some opinions of the local Skeptics.

Who believes and who does not?


Thank you.
Click to expand...

From the link:

"We are the Created God remembering we are God." Lucifer wants to stop the progression of our souls so that we will not become God beings. This is the reason for the Rebellion of Lucifer. Lucifer became our Eternal enemy by trying to stop our reincarnations from achieving God Consciousness.
Click to expand...

Did someone say scientific?
 
pakeha said:
Hi, Josh.
Do you have any follow-up on that 15 year old interview?
Click to expand...

Maybe the good doc has died and been reincarnated and is now a 3 year old girl wrestling with bad memories.
 
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