Regarding Franko...

[Franko]

Upchimp:

Atoms obey the laws of physics
You are made of atoms
You obey the laws of physics.

TLOP makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

tell me more of this magical "free will" you speak of ...

BTW: "Intrinsic Nature" just means "Initial State".

 

[Franko]

Hey Q-Source!

?Como se di se "F-U-C-K-E-R" en Espaniol?

 

[Q-Source]

Hey Q-Source!

?Como se di se "F-U-C-K-E-R" en Espaniol?

"Pendejo"

 

[Franko]

!muchas gracious Senorita!

 

[Q-Source]

!muchas gracious Senorita!

De nada Querido, es un placer!

 

[Franko]

madre-pendejo ... do you think the A-theists will try and censor me for using that one??

Where's Ian ... (goes off to search)

 

[Franko]

I hope the moderators don´t get mad at me

Ohhh please, how many people under the age of 18 are seriously browsing this forum?

This censorship nonsense is exactly that. People like CWL and Upchimp whined because people like me and Ian were being mean to them (boo-hoo-hoo).

I wonder how they'd survive without a moderator looking down on them from above


... fact is, they wouldn't ...

 

[Tricky]

So misunderstanding the Wraith's words is you best empirical evidence for "free will" these days???

You A-Theist grow ever more pathetic.

I think the Wraith has made it very clear that he is NOT using the term "choice" in the same manner you are.

Allow me to remind you, Franko,

wraith said
I chose 33.

Kinda hard to misunderstand a three word sentence, Franko. What is the Lexicon definition of "choice"?

Face it Franko. Wraith was caught in a flat out contradiction and he must face my righteous scorn. Let him deal with it.

But alas, comes a time when the young ones must leave the nest and fly on their own. Wraith is now struggling with the difficult art of dissembling, and you should let him do so, without trying to pick him up each time he falls. It is the only way he will learn. Don't cover for him, or he will never be able to defend Logical Deism without you.

 

[Upchurch]

But that [LG's deterministic control] doesn’t mean that the LG commanded Hitler to kill anyone. That was ALL Hitler!

[snip]

Hitler was compelled to do what Hitler did by his own intrinsic nature.

[snip]

BTW: "Intrinsic Nature" just means "Initial State".

Now we're back to putting the moral responsibility of the Holocaust on the LG (as well as all the other evil acts in the world). Deterministically knowing the outcome of all events, the LG placed Hitler in that place at that time, knowing that he commit (or by other people for him) those attocities. It would be the same as someone putting a time bomb in an orphanage and saying the bomb was morally responsible for the deaths that would ensue.

In which case, according to LD, Hitler, who is nothing but a tool of the LG, is no more morally responsible for the Holocaust than a gun or bullet is morally responsible for the murder of the victim.

This is contradictory to your earlier statement that "the LG [didn't] commanded Hitler to kill anyone". She as much as pointed a gun at the Jews and pulled the trigger when she placed Hitler when and where she did. To say otherwise is to say that Hitler acted outside of the knowledge and/or will of the LG, due to his "intrinsic nature" or "initial state".

Which is it?

Upchurch

 

[Tricky]

come to think ok it, 33 looks like a couple of firm, yet supple boobies rotated at 90 degrees

Actually, it looks like four, so unless you're into cows, I don't see the appeal.

Or perhaps he is using LD logic to argue that 2 + 2 = 2. It wouldn't be the first time he has used... uh... interesting math.

 

[Tricky]

It will be more impressive when Tricky explains how he "knows" that Wraith's mpb algorithm was random in this case. The probability that to him it seems "random" is not a valid proof so far as I can see.

It was not trying to prove MPB was random so much as trying to show a case where MPB is different from free will. Wraith admitted that he did not know why he chose 33. This means there could be no "perceived" benefit if he did not know why. Of course, one could argue that prior brain states led to the choice, but the point is that those brain states were imperceptible to him.

The point is that even when you can perceive no advantage to one choice over another, you still can make a choice.

 

[Franko]

Tricky,

Kinda hard to misunderstand a three word sentence, Franko. What is the Lexicon definition of "choice"?

If the Wraith said it you’ll have to ask him for his specific meaning, but I have said at least 100 times on this very forum that when I use the term “choice” I mean the deterministic result of your MPB algorithm.

In other words a “choice” is simply a deterministic output from an algorithm (YOU).

Face it Franko. Wraith was caught in a flat out contradiction and he must face my righteous scorn. Let him deal with it.

Ohh, but the Wraith is like a brother to me. You mess with him, and you are really messing with us BOTH.

But alas, comes a time when the young ones must leave the nest and fly on their own. Wraith is now struggling with the difficult art of dissembling, and you should let him do so, without trying to pick him up each time he falls. It is the only way he will learn. Don't cover for him, or he will never be able to defend Logical Deism without you.

You should follow your own advice … O’ organizer of the A-Theist Youth!

But actually I have been reading along and the Wraith seems to be doing a more than adequate job of explaining himself. It’s You, Upchimp, and PixyChix that aren’t making any sense.

How come you don’t believe in God without any evidence but you don’t have a similar such problem believing in magic “free will” powers without ANY evidence? Why the constant double standard? How is that Wraith’s problem?


Atoms obet TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
You obey TLOP.

thats the bottom line ...

 

[Upchurch]

How come you don’t believe in God without any evidence but you don’t have a similar such problem believing in magic “free will” powers without ANY evidence?

Well, first, you seem to forget that many of us have said that we've had personal experience with free will. That's not very good evidence, but it's more than I have for God.

Second, what evidence do you have that we have an intrinsic nature that cannot be determined by the LG? Since free will and intrinsic nature work the same way and, in essence, are the same thing, evidence for one would be evidence for the other.

Upchurch

 

[Franko]

Loki,

So your answer is "wraith has a benefit in choosing certain numbers, even if I (and he) can't define what it is". Okay. Seems...convenient.

Actually the MPB routine is pretty simple, it's the underlying database that it relies on that takes a little while to sort out. What makes you so certain that the Wraith doesn't know EXACTLY why he "choose" the number he did?

Maybe he just doesn't want to reveal his train of thought to you?

But you know, I find that when I ask a person to "randomly" select a number between 1 and 100 I can almost always get them to pick "69" (60%+), yet in theory they should only pick that number about 1% of the time. It is very strange ...

 

[Upchurch]

But you know, I find that when I ask a person to "randomly" select a number between 1 and 100 I can almost always get them to pick "69" (60%+), yet in theory they should only pick that number about 1% of the time. It is very strange ...

It's also a quote from "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" as well as having a cultural mystique about it. Deterministic or extenuating circumstances? You decide.

 

[Franko]

Upchurch:
Well, first, you seem to forget that many of us have said that we've had personal experience with free will. That's not very good evidence, but it's more than I have for God.

Well, first, you seem to forget that many of us have said that we've had personal experience with God. That's not very good evidence, but it's more than I have for “free will”.

Upchurch:
Second, what evidence do you have that we have an intrinsic nature that cannot be determined by the LG?

Logical evidence.

Since free will and intrinsic nature work the same way and, in essence, are the same thing, evidence for one would be evidence for the other.

Yeah, I guess kind of like how evidence for a Round moving Earth is actually evidence for a Flat motionless Earth???

You’re clueless Upchurch. You are nothing more then a braindead religious fanatic.

Atoms Obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
You Obey TLOP.

 

[Upchurch]

Logical evidence.

Which is?

 

[Tricky]

If the Wraith said it you’ll have to ask him for his specific meaning, but I have said at least 100 times on this very forum that when I use the term “choice” I mean the deterministic result of your MPB algorithm.

In other words a “choice” is simply a deterministic output from an algorithm (YOU).

You might perhaps consider using another term, since the commonly accepted definition of "choice" is the complete opposite of yours. If you and wraith choose to continue to use "choice" to mean "no choice", then you must expect to be misunderstood quite a lot.

Ohh, but the Wraith is like a brother to me. You mess with him, and you are really messing with us BOTH.

I know that, but if big brother always steps in when little brother is in trouble, then little brother never learns to accept the consequences for his actions. You are doing him no favors.

You should follow your own advice … O’ organizer of the A-Theist Youth!

LOL. Is this because I warn newbies about you during their first encounters? Well, you do the same about me. However, in the spirit of the new year, let us both be content to attack the other's positions, and not the person.

But actually I have been reading along and the Wraith seems to be doing a more than adequate job of explaining himself. It’s You, Upchimp, and PixyChix that aren’t making any sense.

But only to you and perhaps Hammegk. How odd.
Seriously, wraith is not in your class. He often posts two word responses and "dittos" a lot. You at least try to explain, even if your explanations are somewhat predictable. Wraith is apparently not willing to do the very demanding cutting and pasting that it takes to be a well-spoken Logical Deist.

How come you don’t believe in God without any evidence but you don’t have a similar such problem believing in magic “free will” powers without ANY evidence? Why the constant double standard?

I have evidence for free will, as I have defined it. I just showed you evidence. Wraith showed you evidence (although I'm sure that was not his intention). You may stick your fingers in your ears and shout "La la la la. I'm not listening" if you so choose, but the evidence is there staring you in the face. We choose between available perceived alternatives. If you choose to dispute this, your choice to do so will be more evidence of free will.

How is that Wraith’s problem?

It is not Wraith's problem. Wraith does not have a problem as long as he is not disturbed by the fact that he is being badly out-debated on these boards. His beliefs are not a problem, unless he tries to use MPB as a legal defense. Lets hope it won't come to that.

Atoms obet TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
You obey TLOP.

thats the bottom line ...

Maybe you shold make it the bottom line (i.e. your signature). It would save you the trouble of cutting and pasting it so often.

 

[Franko]

Tricky:
We choose between available perceived alternatives. If you choose to dispute this, your choice to do so will be more evidence of free will.

What makes you assume that I have a "choice" to dispute it?

Atoms obey TLOP.
I am made of Atoms.
I obey TLOP.

Where is the "choice" coming from Trixy? Can you "choose" not to obey TLOP?

Why don't you demonstrate your "free will" since you are claiming to possess it?

I bet you will "choose" NOT to ...

 

[Franko]

Upchimp:

Which is?

It's very similar to your evidence for an "Initial State" prior to the "Big Bang".

You see Upchimp ... there was no "Big Bang", and the reason there wasn't, is because (as you are fully aware) NOTHING can escape a singularity (like the Big Bang Singularity -- the mother of ALL singularities according to Pseudo-Materialism).

There was no "Big Bang", and there is no Universe. It's just YOU (the person reading this now) and Your imagination.

Me? ... I'm just a figment of your imagination ...