Regarding Franko...

[Upchurch]

If you insist.

Well, you tell me how, from within the context of LD, someone can act outside of the will of the LG.

If the LG (or TLOP) did not command or decide that Hitler would kill over 6 million helpless people, then Hitler did it of his own accord (as you say, by his intrinsic nature). Does acting by intrinsic nature defy TLOP?

What you call "intrinsic nature" I call "free will"

Does anyone disagree with this definition, from within the context of LD or from without?

Upchurch

 

[Loki]

Franko/wraith,

(from Tricky) : No number could be perceived more beneficial than another one, and yet, you chose one. This is an example of free will without MPB.

Wraith was asked to pick a number between 1 and 100 (make a choice). He did so. There was no (obvious) benefit in choosing any particular number over any other.

At least in theory, all 100 numbers are equally "beneficial". It's a tie! How then does the MPB make a decision? Which number would be selected, and why? Yes, this is my old "what about a tie?" question again. Last time I think you just defined it away, saying "ties aren't possible, because they'd complicate things. Let's invoke Occam's razor and remove the complication." Well, how would MPB process the "pick a number" issue raised by Tricky without resorting to a "tie-breaker" procedure?

 

[Franko]

Loki,

Wraith was asked to pick a number between 1 and 100 (make a choice). He did so. There was no (obvious) benefit in choosing any particular number over any other.

what does no “obvious benefit” mean exactly?

Maybe there was a benefit, from his POV? Maybe you just failed to perceive it.

You know I play that same game with my wife and kids. They guess the number I am going to pick at least 90% of the time … ???

At least in theory, all 100 numbers are equally "beneficial". It's a tie! How then does the MPB make a decision? Which number would be selected, and why? Yes, this is my old "what about a tie?" question again. Last time I think you just defined it away, saying "ties aren't possible, because they'd complicate things. Let's invoke Occam's razor and remove the complication." Well, how would MPB process the "pick a number" issue raised by Tricky without resorting to a "tie-breaker" procedure?

Lets say that I present you with 100 “equally beautiful” and equally very naked women, all of whom are willing to sleep with you.

Are you saying that there will be NO LOGIC to your decision making process?

Maybe you have a reason for preferring brunettes to blondes (maybe a bad past experience with a blond?)? Maybe red-heads are even better still. Maybe you like big tits over small tits – why? Maybe soft round asses are preferable over hard muscular ones?

So how do you break the “tie” Loki?

 

[Upchurch]

So how do you break the “tie” Loki?

By use of his intrinsic nature, I'd say.

 

[Tricky]

what does no “obvious benefit” mean exactly?

Maybe there was a benefit, from his POV? Maybe you just failed to perceive it.

If that were true, then wraith ought to be able to rank the numbers 1 to 100 in order of perceived benefit. If the perceived benefit varies depending on the situation, then he ought to be able to have a number of different rankings for different situations. Do you think this is the case?

You know I play that same game with my wife and kids. They guess the number I am going to pick at least 90% of the time … ???

Um, gee Franko. What that tells me is that you behave in a monotonous, predictable pattern that is discernable even to children.

Try it with a number of strangers and see if you hit the 90% mark.

Lets say that I present you with 100 “equally beautiful” and equally very naked women, all of whom are willing to sleep with you.

Are you saying that there will be NO LOGIC to your decision making process?

Maybe you have a reason for preferring (certain attributes over others)

So how do you break the “tie” Loki?

In this scenario, there is an MPB, based on your tastes. Also, you know the results of your choice. The "pick a number" scenario not only did not distinguish between the choices, but it promised nothing for picking correctly.

In fact, I specifically omitted telling wraith why I wanted him to pick a number to eliminate the possibility of him thinking one number would "win" versus another. There was absolutely no benefit to him picking one number over another, and yet, he still picked one, thus demonstrating that free will can exist in the absence of MPB.

 

[Loki]

Franko,

Lets say that I present you with 100 “equally beautiful” and equally very naked women, all of whom are willing to sleep with you.
...
So how do you break the “tie” Loki?

Well, obviously research is called for in this situation. I'd suggest sleeping with each one a number of times to ensure I get a "proper feel" for the advantages and disadvantages on offer. Then we'd move to a second "double blind" round of tests, during which I'd be blind folded, and have to randomly select 3 naked women at a time to "test". Of course, I'd suggest a generous supply of baby oil and ostrich feathers, and then...wait, what were we discussing?

Maybe there was a benefit, from his POV? Maybe you just failed to perceive it.

So your answer is "wraith has a benefit in choosing certain numbers, even if I (and he) can't define what it is". Okay. Seems...convenient.

 

[PixyMisa]

You know I play that same game with my wife and kids. They guess the number I am going to pick at least 90% of the time

Aha! I see your problem, Franko! You're a mindless zombie! This explains everything!

 

[The Fool]

Certainly questions materialists/atheists need to answer for themselves.

What does your mpb tell you? And why are you still a materialist/atheist?

Hammy.
Answer for myself? How? by using free will? or is the decision fated?

my "mpb" tells me nothing. MPB as franko defines it seems to be a simplistic plagiarization of Abraham Maslow from first year psych....A nice simplistic behavioural model, suitable for beginners.

So what is it to be hammy? Frank also used this "there are some things that that you have to decide yourself" he then could not explain why this was not free will be retreated into the defence of "Its not inconsistent but the reason it isn't is a secret only available to cult members"
Are you a cult member bound by the secrecy provisions or can you explain how I can decide for myself, or answer for myself or do any damn thing "for myself" without free will?

 

[wraith]

At the end, you are not a Fatalist, wraith.

at the end, youre not a free-willy-ist Q-Cumber

 

[wraith]

Then it is not a "choice", is it?

thats right...no choices

I do not. If it is already selected, then there is no choice. For example. Choose one option from the following list.

• Option one

Here is a set of options...

- punch your wife
- punch a murderer

from what you have experienced, and the way that you have processed them, the above choice has already been made

Um... no they don't. Now some people adept at math have shown you that depending on how you define two, you can get various outcomes. However, I assume you are talking about integers (since I suspect you are not familiar with group theory) and I agree 2 + 2 = 4. But this has nothing to do with free will as I have defined it because there are no other options. Remember, free will chooses between available percieved options.

read above

I did it to prove you wrong, not to mock you. The choice was mine.

You didnt prove anything

and it wasnt your choice

Too damn lazy. Mandarin would be of little use to me, although Spanish would be quite helpful. But I will probably use my free will to opt for being lazy.

you didnt choose

read my first post

In everything you are explain here, you are making the the assumption that I choose. You have said it time and time again. Try it again. Choice means free will. If no free will, there is no choice.

read first post

You have never demonstrated a double standard. You have tried to tell us what Misa thinks, then argued against that. However, most of us here have seen enough straw men to recognize one. You have demonstrated an inability to vary your arguments, an unwillingness to answer questions, and internal contradictions in your logic. Yes, PM is kicking your arse. Of course, you can use your "free will" to engage in self-delusion, but it is obvious to almost everyone else here.

whatever makes you feel good

As I have stated, I will show you the 4-sided triangle when you agree to admit free will exists once I have done so. If you do not agree to this in advance, I "perceive no benefit" in doing so, so I will excercise my free will not to show you.

ahhh no haha

Okay. I don't care what number you chose, but you admit you chose one. I never promised you anything, and even if I had, what possible MPB could you have for choosing the number you did?. There is no benefit to one number over another. This illustrates the rare situation where MBP is different from free will. Usually, you use your free will to choose the most advantageous path. But sometimes, it is impossible to know what path is more advantageous. You have no idea what number I have chosen, and indeed, I didn't even choose one. No number could be perceived more beneficial than another one, and yet, you chose one. This is an example of free will without MPB.

It's all MPB.
Perceived a benefit to choose a number so I did so. Just for fun
I chose 33. No particular reason...just looks like a pretty sexy number
Relate it to my brain state if you like...I obey TLOP

and how does obeying TLOP give you free-will?
you might want to consult Pixy (who is a guy by the way haha) on this one

 

[wraith]

Franko/wraith,


Wraith was asked to pick a number between 1 and 100 (make a choice). He did so. There was no (obvious) benefit in choosing any particular number over any other.

At least in theory, all 100 numbers are equally "beneficial". It's a tie! How then does the MPB make a decision? Which number would be selected, and why? Yes, this is my old "what about a tie?" question again. Last time I think you just defined it away, saying "ties aren't possible, because they'd complicate things. Let's invoke Occam's razor and remove the complication." Well, how would MPB process the "pick a number" issue raised by Tricky without resorting to a "tie-breaker" procedure?

I was just obeying TLOP
33 looked pretty sexy

come to think ok it, 33 looks like a couple of firm, yet supple boobies rotated at 90 degrees

 

[wraith]

.

 

[Upchurch]

and how does obeying TLOP give you free-will?

It's called "intrinsic nature", wraith-old-boy. Have Pope Franko give you a lesson in it sometime.

come to think ok it, 33 looks like a couple of firm, yet supple boobies rotated at 90 degrees

What are you? 12 years old? maybe 13?

Upchurch

 

[Tricky]

thats right...no choices

Ah, but then you say...

I chose 33. No particular reason...just looks like a pretty sexy number

That's right. You chose. You had no MPB (no particular reason), but you chose anyway. Let me show you this again in case your memory is faulty.

I chose 33. No particular reason...

I chose 33. No particular reason...

I chose 33.

I chose 33.

By now you should realize that you admit you have choices and they are not necessarily based on MPB.

Now, each time that you try to tell me I have "no choice" I will remind you of your own words which show that you believe in choice. My lad, you are busted.

and how does obeying TLOP give you free-will?
you might want to consult Pixy (who is a guy by the way haha) on this one

Free will is a part of TLOP.
And yes, I have known about Misa's gender for some time. I also know he prefers to have his name shortened to "Misa" rather than "Pixy". I actually read the posts here.

 

[Ipecac]

come to think ok it, 33 looks like a couple of firm, yet supple boobies rotated at 90 degrees

Actually, it looks like four, so unless you're into cows, I don't see the appeal.

 

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by wraith
I chose 33.No particular reason...

By now you should realize that you admit you have choices and they are not necessarily based on MPB.

Ouchh... Jaque & Mate !

Tricky rocks!

 

[Franko]

Tricky:

That's right. You chose. You had no MPB (no particular reason), but you chose anyway. Let me show you this again in case your memory is faulty.

So misunderstanding the Wraith's words is you best empirical evidence for "free will" these days???

You A-Theist grow ever more pathetic.

I think the Wraith has made it very clear that he is NOT using the term "choice" in the same manner you are.

 

[Upchurch]

So misunderstanding the Wraith's words is you best empirical evidence for "free will" these days???

Actually, for you anyway, the best evidence for "free will" is the same as your best evidence for "intinsic nature".

What was that evidence again?

Upchurch

 

[hammegk]

Ouchh... Jaque & Mate !

Tricky rocks!

Beauty. Eye. Beholder.

It will be more impressive when Tricky explains how he "knows" that Wraith's mpb algorithm was random in this case. The probability that to him it seems "random" is not a valid proof so far as I can see.

 

[PixyMisa]

I think the Wraith has made it very clear that he is NOT using the term "choice" in the same manner you are.

Right. The Goddess threatened to kill a bunny unless he chose 22.

Oops. Well, that's tonight's dinner sorted out.