Regarding Franko...

[Franko]

UCE,

Someone is obsessed with someone...that's for sure.

I knew I could smoke you out. If not, the Fool is just as much a mystic as you ever were.

No charge, Frank. No beliefs, no obsessions, no sock puppets, no expectations, no wish to challenge the beliefs of others and until today no posts on JREF since the summer.

Sure my friend … whatever you say.

But the important thing is you are posting as UCE now.

No sock puppets, and you get some of your gravity back.

 

[Guest]

Frank,

There never were any sock puppets, not mine away. I have only ever posted as UCE and Juggler (well I made a handful of posts as another name but that was a long time ago now). The Fools posts do not represent my views - not even close. Now....if you want me to explain what I think about Free Will and Franko then I might do so, if asked nicely, but please stop attributing the work of others to me.

Geoff.

 

[Franko]

UCE,

There never were any sock puppets, not mine away. I have only ever posted as UCE and Juggler (well I made a handful of posts as another name but that was a long time ago now). The Fools posts do not represent my views - not even close.

Actually … Truth be told … I have known for a while that the Fool isn’t you UCE. But it is a moot point. On the issue of “free will” and “god” you share almost identical beliefs, and you are both fanatical in your devotion to this bit of Dogma. Neither of you can prove what you believes, and BOTH of you use the same logical fallacies to try and support your insane wishful thinking about how reality should work (if Solipsism were True).

Besides, I knew the Fool’s true master wouldn’t like being accused of being You any more than you would want to be associated with the Fool. But since you A-Theists all like to play these little hide and seek games (Lord knows you can’t actually defend what you claim to believe), you leave me no “choice”.

Now....if you want me to explain what I think about Free Will and Franko then I might do so, if asked nicely, but please stop attributing the work of others to me.

Are you sure your fragile psyche can handle discussing “free will” with me Elephant?

Ahhh, I guess if it starts to go badly for you, you can always run off again and create another Trolling sockpuppet … ?

If you can’t beat them … whine, cry, and pout a lot. Throw a temper tantrum like CWL, or Upchimp, or MRC, or Evildave, or Lucy Rochelle, or De-Bungler, or Mussy, or Titanpout, or Trixy, or …

btw - I like the new avatar.

 

[The Fool]

Actually … Truth be told … I have known for a while that the Fool isn’t you UCE.

Truth be told? are you trying a new approach?
If you have "known for a while" why did you post this today...



I guess it is just a “coincidence” that you arrived as I was accusing the A-Theists Fool of “defending” your old position on magic “free willy” powers?


you would make a fine conspiracy theorist Fanko....did you shoot JFK after all????

On reading back through some old threads I now understand why you are paranoid about UCE, He certainly underlined your weaknesses.

I would suggest you arrive at a consistent position on free will before you start discussing the subject with UCE.... Your constantly changing views make debate very confusing...

 

[Guest]

Frank.

Listen Carefully : I am not an atheist.

 

[The Fool]

Frank.

Listen Carefully : I am not an atheist.

Good morning to you Elephant. As you can see Franko has deteriorated somewhat since your departure. I'm afraid he is a shell of his former self. He is now basically limited to cutting and pasting his favourite falacy of composition along with the usual question begging and ad-hom.... He still fancies himself as having won something when people abandon debates due to his behavior. Unfortunately I have a perverse pleasure in watching him dance for my amusement....I like to think of it as an e-hobby.

 

[Guest]

Good morning to you Elephant.

Good morning to you too.

 

[Guest]

Ohhh -- just kiss him already and be done with it!

Do you have a soul, Franko?


edited....

OK you finally answered.

 

[Franko]

So Elephant ...

You have stated that you believe the SOUL and the EGO are two seperate and distinct entities.

Why do you believe this?

 

[Guest]

So Elephant ...

You have stated that you believe the SOUL and the EGO are two seperate and distinct entities.

Why do you believe this?

Ego is everything explicable my materialistic neuroscience. It degenerates as the brain degenerates. It CANNOT survive the death of the brain.

Soul provides Beingness itself, and Will. It is that which is inexplicable by materialistic neuroscience. Beyond that I do not feel it is appropriate to discuss in public the nature of Soul/God-head.

 

[Franko]

Ego is everything explicable my materialistic neuroscience. It degenerates as the brain degenerates. It CANNOT survive the death of the brain.

There is no brain because there is no “matter”. I thought you were not a Materialist?

Ergo, there is no Ego in the manner you describe.

Soul provides Beingness itself, and Will. It is that which is inexplicable by materialistic neuroscience.

In other words, you are claiming that there is no evidence for this belief, so don’t even ask? This is simply a special plead Elephant. This doesn’t prove the existence of the Soul, and it doesn’t prove that the Soul and Ego are independent.

All you are doing is making up your own version of Atheism where you accept the existence of the Soul in order to obtain “free will”.

Unfortunately your version of A-Theism makes even less sense then the regular version. Some how you have managed to do the impossible and you have simply made A-Theism even less consistent logically.

Beyond that I do not feel it is appropriate to discuss in public the nature of Soul/God-head.

Of course not, because you only have your own word and wishful thinking as evidence for it.

You are your Soul my Friend. It only has two parts if you are an insane schizophrenic.

Tell me Elephant what would be the point of existing in this Universe at all if we simply forget everything the moment we die? That kind of defeats the purpose for living in the first place – doesn’t it?

I’ve told you before, in most variations of reincarnation there is no difference from your POV to Geoff being annihilated, and a brand new consciousness being created. All you are doing is claiming that when we die we cease to exist, you are just making a MUCH, MUCH more complicated explanation for it than the A-Theists offer.

Of course if you are the kind of person who wants to forget, I can see where this “theory” would have some appeal. But if losing your memory is what you desire, why not just over indulge in alcohol and mind altering drugs? There is no need to pretend you have a separate Soul and Ego …

 

[Aardvark_DK]

There is no brain because there is no “matter”.

Sorry for being a bit dense, Franko, but is that your claim or is it what you think UCE believes?

 

[Franko]

Sorry for being a bit dense, Franko, but is that your claim or is it what you think UCE believes?

A-Theist, I have no doubt this conversation is well over your head.

The Elephant and myself are talking about something that most A-Theists just don’t comprehend at all – RELIGION and PHILOSOPHY (specifically the nature of the Soul).

Just do your normal thing and assume that we (Theists/Deists) are all insane.

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Does that mean you're not going to answer my question? Can I safely assume that you're a materialist who believes that "There is no brain because there is no “matter”"?

 

[Guest]

Frank,

There is no brain because there is no “matter”. I thought you were not a Materialist?

Is there a Sherlock Holmes?

The physical world may be logically equivalent to a fiction, or a mathematical construct, but that does not mean it does not exist at all.

Ergo, there is no Ego in the manner you describe.

Well Pahansiri would agree with that, and so would the Buddha. I would probably describe the ego as a very powerful illusion.

In other words, you are claiming that there is no evidence for this belief, so don’t even ask?

Erm...there is mountains of evidence to explain how brain activity governs most of the content of mental experience.

All you are doing is making up your own version of Atheism where you accept the existence of the Soul in order to obtain “free will”.

I am not an atheist, Frank. I offer no opinion on the existence and nature of God/Gods apart form that I believe the objective existence of Infinity is logically neccesary to explain the existence of anything at all, as well as Free Will.

Tell me Elephant what would be the point of existing in this Universe at all if we simply forget everything the moment we die? That kind of defeats the purpose for living in the first place – doesn’t it?

Well, that is a tough old question, Frankie Baby. Everything we try to acheive is rendered meaningless by death. Or as the existentialists would say...."Life is intrinsically meaningless so you'd better give it some meaning or you are existential toast!"

You are going to DIE Frank!

There is nothing I can say to make that pill easier to swallow. But it is the one thing those silly little 'A-theists' have come to terms with but you haven't.

Attempting to argue that the ego must survive death because otherwise life would be meaningless is like a small child arguing that the tooth fairy must exists otherwise what would be the point in all the stress of losing ones milk teeth!

I’ve told you before, in most variations of reincarnation there is no difference from your POV to Geoff being annihilated, and a brand new consciousness being created.

I am not a re-incarnationist, although I hold no hard beliefs in this area. I see no reason for believing that 'souls' are recycled.

All you are doing is claiming that when we die we cease to exist, you are just making a MUCH, MUCH more complicated explanation for it than the A-Theists offer.

I am claiming that our EGO ceases to exist. I am also claiming that we were never actually our EGO to begin with. We just think we are. Do you really want me to go into any more detail or have you heard enough yet?

Of course if you are the kind of person who wants to forget, I can see where this “theory” would have some appeal. But if losing your memory is what you desire, why not just over indulge in alcohol and mind altering drugs? There is no need to pretend you have a separate Soul and Ego …

It has nothing to do with what I desire. Desiring immortal existence as Frank Ross does not make it so. Wishing there to be intrinsic meaning to life does not make it so. Believing in hell as a punishment for evil-doers does not make it so.

 

[Franko]

Elephant,

Is there a Sherlock Holmes?

The physical world may be logically equivalent to a fiction, or a mathematical construct, but that does not mean it does not exist at all.

Well I would agree with you there; however, that doesn’t change the fact that you can’t go dig up Sherlock Holmes’ body. And by the same token You are not made of “Matter”. “matter” is just the information that we exchange between us, you aren’t made of it, any more than you are made of 3’s.

If you are claiming that your Soul is bound by matter than that isn’t a Soul. That is materialism – that is when you die you cease to exist. Like I said, you are still an A-Theist Elephant, you have just manage to convince yourself that you are not one.

Well Pahansiri would agree with that, and so would the Buddha. I would probably describe the ego as a very powerful illusion.

What exactly does that mean?

Does that mean that YOU are simply a “very powerful illusion”?

… I wonder if I could dispel you?

Franko: In other words, you are claiming that there is no evidence for this belief, so don’t even ask?

Elephant:
Erm...there is mountains of evidence to explain how brain activity governs most of the content of mental experience.

Yeah, sure … if you are an A-Theists/Pseudo-Materialist!

Which puzzles me, because you keep telling me that you are not?

You aren’t giving me any reason to believe in a Soul Elephant. What is to be gained by this belief? Let me guess, it has all of the benefits of A-Theism (ceasing to exist, no god, no one superior to you, no one to answer to, no consequences for your actions, plus you get the magic bonus of magic “free willy” powers).

Franko:
All you are doing is making up your own version of Atheism where you accept the existence of the Soul in order to obtain “free will”.

Elephant:
I am not an atheist, Frank. I offer no opinion on the existence and nature of God/Gods apart form that I believe the objective existence of Infinity is logically neccesary to explain the existence of anything at all, as well as Free Will.

Do you mean Infinity, or Zero???

… and you still haven’t provided ANY evidence for “free will”. All you have done is claim that we have an Ego and a Soul, but you haven’t explained why this is true (evidence), or How this would account for “free will”? Do the Ego and Soul ever duke it out Elephant? Why have both if you only need one? Explain what you mean?

Franko:
Tell me Elephant what would be the point of existing in this Universe at all if we simply forget everything the moment we die? That kind of defeats the purpose for living in the first place – doesn’t it?

Elephant:
Well, that is a tough old question, Frankie Baby.

Only for an A-Theist …

Everything we try to acheive is rendered meaningless by death.

Only if you are a Pessimistic A-Theist.

Or as the existentialists would say...."Life is intrinsically meaningless so you'd better give it some meaning or you are existential toast!"

Translation: Life (Existence) is meaningless if you are an A-Theist, unless you prtend that it has meaning.

You find this a fulfilling philosophy to live by? I say it certainly explains a lot about you.

You are going to DIE Frank!

Think so? Maybe I am just a figment of your imagination? Maybe I don’t even exist?

There is nothing I can say to make that pill easier to swallow.

You are making it easy for me to swallow??? … why Elephant – I’m touched.

But explain to me, how is YOUR crushing fear and inability to deal with Fate and the consequences for your own actions a weakness on My part? That seems more like a weakness on YOUR part?

You are controlled by Fate my friend. You can pretend all you want, but until you have some evidence that refutes it – it is a fact. Furthermore, it is rather obvious what you have done. Your fear of Fate is sooo overwhelming that instead of concede to the obvious truth you have created an elaborate fantasy belief system whereby A-Theism can be True, and you still get magic “free will” powers, while not having to deal with the consequences of your “free willy” actions.

Why exactly should anyone be moral according to you? You have created the perfect religion for criminals, murderers, rapists, and thieves.

But it is the one thing those silly little 'A-theists' have come to terms with but you haven't.

if you say so …

Attempting to argue that the ego must survive death because otherwise life would be meaningless is like a small child arguing that the tooth fairy must exists otherwise what would be the point in all the stress of losing ones milk teeth!

hehehe … you crack me up!

Okay … so who came up with this system … God?

Why do you A-Theists always have to make God out to be some sort of moron? Elephant Christianity is a better more consistent philosophical system then what you just entailed. What makes you believe that God wouldn’t be at least as bright as the Christians claim? Ohhh, that is right – Solipsism is actually TRUE and YOU are god (if you are reading this now). All of the figments KNOW that no one is smarter than YOU.

So “God” comes up with this elaborate system that runs the gerbils through the wheels and then makes them forget everything? There is no point to it – just make up a reason why. What better nonsense does god have to do? Ohhh, and by the way, there is no reason to be moral ---kill someone on your way out would you? Apparently God (UCE) wants us to reduce the population down by 99.9% so the remaining “enlightened” few can return to the medieval period and be subsistence farmers …

Franko:
I’ve told you before, in most variations of reincarnation there is no difference from your POV to Geoff being annihilated, and a brand new consciousness being created.

Elephant:
I am not a re-incarnationist, although I hold no hard beliefs in this area. I see no reason for believing that 'souls' are recycled.

Elephant if you die and you aren’t YOU any more than YOU has ceased to exist.

All you are offering is an insaner, more deluded, more complicated version of A-Theism.

Franko:
All you are doing is claiming that when we die we cease to exist, you are just making a MUCH, MUCH more complicated explanation for it than the A-Theists offer.

Elephant:
I am claiming that our EGO ceases to exist.

Yeah … the Ego is YOU.

Prtending that some magical invisible essence “lives on” in the eyes of the Omniconsciousness is great from the POV of the Omniconsciousness.

Unfortunately for you such an entity doesn’t exist, so instead you will be left with nothing but Solipsism. It is already happening to you … don’t you perceive it?

I am also claiming that we were never actually our EGO to begin with. We just think we are.

You just think you are UCE?

Listen buddy, if you aren’t UCE, then no one is.

You really are schizophrenic aren’t you? You need to cut back on the self medication my friend.

Do you really want me to go into any more detail or have you heard enough yet?

I want you to explain why you believe you are not who you believe you are?

If you don’t know who you are … then how do you know anything? I guess Yatzi was right Elephant … your consciousness is just an illusion?

I want you to explain why any “sane” entity would ever come up with this system in the first place? What purpose does it serve?

I want you to explain why anyone has ANY incentive to be moral under this system, and if NOT, then what does that say of YOUR god?

I want you to explain why you feel that cigarettes are so bad if your EGO dies anyway? Doesn’t seem to make any difference to me.

BTW … didn’t you quit smoking??? I thought you were the one who isn’t afraid to die? Seems rather a contradiction …

 

[Guest]

I have answered Franko in a PM. If anyone is interested in the answers PM me.

 

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Ego is everything explicable my materialistic neuroscience. It degenerates as the brain degenerates. It CANNOT survive the death of the brain.

Soul provides Beingness itself, and Will. It is that which is inexplicable by materialistic neuroscience. Beyond that I do not feel it is appropriate to discuss in public the nature of Soul/God-head.

Of all the discussion above, the most interesting part is the one you don't want to discuss in public.

What is your evidence to support the "infinite soul" claim ?

 

[Guest]

Of all the discussion above, the most interesting part is the one you don't want to discuss in public.

What is your evidence to support the "infinite soul" claim ?

Unless Infinity is in the equation I see no meaningful source of Free Will. Unless Infinity objectively exists I see no reason why anything should exist. Explaining a single finite Universe is considerably more difficult than explaining an Infinite set of possible Infinite Universes. The existence of Infinity is the easiest (and arguably the only) way to explain the something-from-nothing conundrum.

As for the nature of the soul, and my reasons for not wishing to publicly discuss certain things - well if I told you why I did not wish to discuss them in public it would defeat the object of not discussing them in public. I recall a phrase about pearls and swine - but please don't take that personally. Why discuss fine details of the nature of the soul and the nature of personal reality and metaphysical mechanics with people who poo-poo all metaphysics, and do not accept the basic premise of the existence of soul/god-head at all? It's like discussing Shakespeare with a person that refuses to acknowledge the existence of the English language. The truth can be found, but you have to want to find it rather than wanting to preserve your current belief system. I'm not interested in sharing hard-earned and valuable information about the precise nature of metaphysics with people whose only agenda is to discredit the whole idea of metaphysics. I hope you can see why.

Geoff.

 

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Unless Infinity is in the equation I see no meaningful source of Free Will. Unless Infinity objectively exists I see no reason why anything should exist. Explaining a single finite Universe is considerably more difficult than explaining an Infinite set of possible Infinite Universes. The existence of Infinity is the easiest (and arguably the only) way to explain the something-from-nothing conundrum.

As for the nature of the soul, and my reasons for not wishing to publicly discuss certain things - well if I told you why I did not wish to discuss them in public it would defeat the object of not discussing them in public. I recall a phrase about pearls and swine - but please don't take that personally. Why discuss fine details of the nature of the soul and the nature of personal reality and metaphysical mechanics with people who poo-poo all metaphysics, and do not accept the basic premise of the existence of soul/god-head at all? It's like discussing Shakespeare with a person that refuses to acknowledge the existence of the English language. The truth can be found, but you have to want to find it rather than wanting to preserve your current belief system. I'm not interested in sharing hard-earned and valuable information about the precise nature of metaphysics with people whose only agenda is to discredit the whole idea of metaphysics. I hope you can see why.

Geoff.

So, in short, to obtain evidence of an infinite soul, you have first to believe that there is an infinite soul. Then, you have to reject any known objetive way to obtain knowledge and giving up any hope to peer review (just to be sure that we are not fooling ourselves). And all of this is TOP SECRET. Dear friend, be sure that I can see why.