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Referendum on Scottish Independence

richardm said:
Only by one seat, mind.
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Irrelevant

richardm said:
No, it doesn't seem to be, does it? When the SNP first took power it seemed to me like it was inevitable that independence would follow, especially since the SNP seemed to be right on the ball. It doesn't feel quite so much like that now, though. Perhaps it's because Salmond was of the opinion that delaying the referendum would give the best chance of a Yes vote, when people saw how well the country was going, but unfortunately instead people got to see small countries like e.g. Iceland going to the wall and I think it's made them nervous. Maybe he'd have done better to strike while the iron was hot.
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Global financial circumstances have a lot to answer for. All polls I have seen show that the public are happy with the SNP admin. The financial recession has instilled a lot of fear and trepidation and quite rightly so. It was never going to help Independence. I dont think you can fault Salmond for delaying as the english run parties would have blocked it then anyway.

richardm said:
Maybe, but still popular enough to pull in three times the votes the SNP did in Glasgow North East. I think we'd probably all get along a lot better if the arguments weren't characterised as Evil English people stopping the Brave Scots from having their freedom, because it's not like that at all. As Rolfe says, the Scots are not a monolithic group (and she's as SNP as they come)
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Those parties are run from London. Remember what happened to the Labour lady who said "BRING IT ON". I am not saying they are stopping us having freedom, they are stopping us having a say on whether we want it or not. That is hypocritical when you see the displays towards former Soviet Bloc countries by the UK and US govts.

Give me one good reason why we should not get a chance to vote on it?

What does the UN say about self determination or independence for nations? Perhaps we should look at India for examples of countries who split from England and see where it all went wrong for them? Maybe we should look at the HDI index to see how poorly small nations do?
 
Just indulging in fairly usual scare tactics I think.

We will see what people think when the campaign actually brings these arguments into the serious light of debate
 
Well, it's obstensively a vote to leave, not a vote to get kicked out, right? Asking for permission to be independent seems like a violation of the spirit of the thing. :)
 
Perhaps they'd make an exception for said subset that was forcefully made to join.
 
Cynic said:
Well, it's obstensively a vote to leave, not a vote to get kicked out, right? Asking for permission to be independent seems like a violation of the spirit of the thing. :)
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In the UK every citizen already has "self determination", every citizen in the UK has a representative in at least one legislative body that passes the laws that effects them. We have no second class citizens in the UK.

I am actually all for the people of Scotland to decide whether they want to become "independent" or not I just object to how the people wanting independence have gone about it and how it is never presented as what it is i.e. the destruction/end of my country. I am proud to be British, I am also proud of my Welsh roots, I am also proud to be a British person born in an area of "England" that has merged pretty seamlessly (well since Roman time) into "Scotland".
 
Cynic said:
Perhaps they'd make an exception for said subset that was forcefully made to join.
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Oh please - the act of union is over 300 years old for goodness sake! And the Scottish and English (but not the Welsh or Irish at the time) had equal rights after the union, no matter how meagre those rights were. The Scottish people were no more forced into the Union than the English people were.
 
Francesca R said:
Irrelevant. I don't believe it has anything to say about supporting the freedom of a subset of a nation to forcefully secede.
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We've had the argument about declaring that an incorporated nation loses its right to be treated as a nation and can therefore be outvoted in perpetuity on other occasions, and there seems little point in rehashing it now.

However, even ignoring the violently split infinitive, "forcefully" seems a bit strong.

Rolfe.
 
Yes it's a bit strong, but a yes vote in a referendum voted on only by residents of Scotland would be, by default, against the wishes of the population of the nation as a whole. So to carry through with it without getting the rest onside would need a bit of force.
 
Rolfe said:
We've had the argument about declaring that an incorporated nation loses its right to be treated as a nation and can therefore be outvoted in perpetuity on other occasions, and there seems little point in rehashing it now.

However, even ignoring the violently split infinitive, "forcefully" seems a bit strong.

Rolfe.
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I don't think "forcefully" is too strong - the rest of the UK would have no choice, the decision would be forced on us.
 
Well, as I said at the top, given those 300 years since "the act of union" (yikes!) I'm surprised anyone gives a crap either. I personally think that independence is weird idea at this point regardless of the reason for the union. Please bear in mind that my knowledge of Scottish history comes almost entirely from the fairy tales and the movies Braveheart and Rob Roy. It's not that we're ignorant -- we just don't care that much. ;)

To sharpen my point, however, I believe you're conflating individual independence with group independence a bit. If the "Scottish people" wish to have independence, that isn't the business of those who are not "the Scottish people". Individuals are only so much important as the groups they belong to at this sense. If you want to claim that this decision affects everyone in the union and therefore it's every individual's business, then I completely agree.
 
Cynic said:
...snip...

To sharpen my point, however, I believe you're conflating individual independence with group independence a bit. If the "Scottish people" wish to have independence, that isn't the business of those who are not "the Scottish people". Individuals are only so much important as the groups they belong to at this sense. If you want to claim that this decision affects everyone in the union and therefore it's every individual's business, then I completely agree.
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I understand your point and that's pretty much why I do support independence if the vote goes that way (even if I don't want it to happen).
 
funk de fino said:
Are you having a laugh?
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No, I'm asking a question. I take it your answer is "no", but I'd have liked to see something a bit more detailed than that.

Couldn't an independent Scotland - which isn't in NATO and which (presumably, unless they decide to spend heavily on defence) has a much smaller military with which to defend a rather large area - be seen as a security risk from an English perspective?

I'm not suggesting you'd end up with a new iron curtain or anything that restricts the ability of people to move back and forth in peacetime.
But wouldn't there have to be some preparation for the possibility that at some point in the future a Napoleon IV is going to invade Northumberland by landing an army in Scotland?

I guess I don't understand why an independent Scotland wouldn't want to be in NATO.
 
I believe Salmond has declared that the hypothetical Independent Scotland would keep its army conjoined with England, Wales and NI. Infact, Salmond has also decalred that the Queen would remain head of State and the pound as currency. So presumably he believes there are some things good about the Union and things Scotland can't manage alone. Some would call him a slight hypocrite, but of course I couldn't possibly comment.
 
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