Reference in the koran, please?

[specious_reasons]

(...)
I'm more interested in how we can help mellow Muslims survive and carry on as mellow folk, than I am in condemning Islam entirely.

However, I think that sometimes a strong condemnation of certain Islamic beliefs and practices is helpful to the mellow Muslims out there. Westerners who apologize for Islam and praise it as a "religion of peace," strengthen the fundamentalist's sense of righteousness, and encourage persecution of the moderates in the Islamic world.

DrBenway, a far more noble concept than the objective of my thread. You may be excused now.

 

[Baker]

I am aware of the Sunna, but know next to nothing about it. I'll gladly accept references from that, too. My knowledge of Islam seems to be far inferior to yours, DrBenway, and my only personal sources are from moderate (liberal) American muslims. They, of course, have an agenda to show me how reasonable their religion is.

I don't really want to single out Baker, since he's been a good sport on this thread, but he has made the claim that the Koran advocates terrorism. Or that the Koran is corrupt or evil. Others on the board have made similar claims. Personally, my BS meter starts going off the scale when this is said.

Of course, this thread has provided me with some substance to look into. As of right now, the given references,
- seem to advocate violence, especially against non-believers.
- can lump Christians in with the non-believers.

Fair summary?

What is it that you are looking for besides what I have already showed you?
Here is the hadith.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/

 

[a_unique_person]

Indonesia is not an Islamic state where Islamic law is put into practice. For an example of Islamic law in action, check out Saudi Arabia.

By far the majority of people in Indonesia are Muslim.

 

[DrBenway]

By far the majority of people in Indonesia are Muslim.

I don't dispute that. However, Islamic Law is not the law of the land in Indonesia, as it is in Saudi Arabia.

 

[Bjorn]

I don't dispute that. However, Islamic Law is not the law of the land in Indonesia, as it is in Saudi Arabia.

Correct. In other words, the country with the largest population of muslims in the world is not ruled by Islamic Law, nor are the majority of muslim countries. If 'mainstream' islam can be defined as 'majority' islam, mainstream islam is somehow a lot less fundamentalistic than proposed here.

And even in the countries that are ruled by Islamic Law, e.g. Saudi Arabia as you mentioned - how many were stoned to death last year? None?

How many infidels did the Saudis kill last year? None?

 

[Bjorn]

If you were a woman in western attire, or if you were a Christian wearning a cross around your neck, or openly carrying a Bible, you might have felt threatened.

A bit off topic, sorry, but I did once travel for three months with 'a woman in western attire' in the muslim world. She never covered herself too much (some muslims will see that as a mockery of their beliefs and traditions), but we never had a problem. Except a few hundred offers of marriage, of course.

Two of the countries were Yemen and Oman, not exactly the prototypes of 'modern' muslim countries.

 

[Baker]

And even in the countries that are ruled by Islamic Law, e.g. Saudi Arabia as you mentioned - how many were stoned to death last year? None?

How many infidels did the Saudis kill last year? None?

Not allowing women to drive and not allowing girls to participate in sport at schools and colleges are some issues that we do indeed find difficulty in defending.All the same, we respond with arguments that we believe are at least in part convincing and can at least absolve us of the charge of persecuting women. In our discussions with these visitors, we invariably focus on the rights which Islam grants to women — and those include the right of women to acquire and manage wealth
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=saudiarabia&ID=SP47203#_ednref1

Come on Bjorn try to use some critical thinking on this.
I don’t know how many infidels they killed but its not a free country by a long shot.


Saudi Religious Police Launch Website
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD50403

Interviewing ali al-ahmed
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/interviews/ahmed.html

Come on Bjorn try to use some critical thinking on this.
I don’t know how many infidels they killed but its not a free country by a long shot.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/interviews/ahmed.html

 

[Frank Newgent]

In other words, the country with the largest population of muslims in the world is not ruled by Islamic Law, nor are the majority of muslim countries. If 'mainstream' islam can be defined as 'majority' islam, mainstream islam is somehow a lot less fundamentalistic than proposed here.

http://www.hawaii.edu/cseas/pubs/indonesia/indonesia.html

Another common thread that may be found throughout Indonesian society is the official state creed of Pancasila. Created by Sukarno, the first president of Indonesia, Pancasila is the set of five principles that is meant to guide the Indonesian way of life. The five principles are as follows:

1. Belief in One God: Indonesians allow freedom of choice in religion but acknowledge the existence of one God. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism are all recognised as religions which may be practiced.

2. Nationalism: Indonesians proclaim allegiance to their country and recall the 1928 conference in which delegates declared their support for the idea of one country, one people, and one language for all of Indonesia.

3. Humanitarianism: Indonesians strive to build a just and humane society for all.

4. Democracy: Musyawarah and mufakat (discussion and consensus) form the basis for democratic involvement.

5. Social Justice: The weak must be protected and equal opportunities must be provided for the welfare of the people.

Every Indonesian learns about Pancasila in the schools. Pancasila is also promoted throughout the government civil service and is represented on the shield of the national coat of arms, which also features the mythical garuda bird and the national motto, "Bhinneka Tunggal Ika," which may be translated as "From Many There Is One" or, more commonly, "Unity in Diversity". Pancasila provides a common set of principles for a nation composed of dozens of different ethnic groups.

Indonesia's current president, Megawati Sukarno Putri, is Sukarno's daughter.

 

[Bjorn]

Come on Bjorn try to use some critical thinking on this.
I don’t know how many infidels they killed but its not a free country by a long shot.

Let's assume they killed zero infidels. And stoned zero women.

How can you insist that mainstream Islam is about doing just that? If it is, how come they don't?

It's not like I say it is 'a free country' or defend it if they don't let women drive cars, but aren't we faaaaar from the amputation og hands and feet and the stoning of women? Fact is, I know American men who rather saw that females didn't drive on the highways. Or claim that they are femi-nazis.

And the killing of infidels?

Can we agree that such things are not happening in Saudi Arabia? Or can you show it happens?

Maybe we can try to find out if it is happening at all, and if it is, where and how much?

Maybe we can check if this is really 'mainstream' islam or just in very few places?

 

[Bjorn]

Indonesia's current president, Megawati Sukarno Putri, is Sukarno's daughter.

Well, just to show off: Putri means daughter or princess ....

 

[DrBenway]

Maybe we can check if this is really 'mainstream' islam or just in very few places?

There are reasons the sharia isn't the law of the land everywhere. This doesn't mean that the sharia isn't widely accepted in the Muslim world as Allah's will for mankind.

They do amputate body parts in Saudi Arabia. And people are executed for various crimes by beheading in the public square.

As for the infidels, the sharia recommends subjugating them first. It's only necessary to kill them when they rebel against their Muslim rulers.

The sharia dictates killing apostates. Yet as far as I know, no apostates were killed in Saudi Arabia last year. How can this be explained?

Well, typically, an apostate is given three days to repent. He's only executed if he fails to come to his senses after the three day period. I think even Salman Rushdie would say, "Islam is just tops!" under those circumstances.

 

[Baker]

And the killing of infidels?

Can we agree that such things are not happening in Saudi Arabia? Or can you show it happens?

Maybe we can try to find out if it is happening at all, and if it is, where and how much?

Maybe we can check if this is really 'mainstream' islam or just in very few places?

Here I go again MEMRI is a good source on how the Arab and Islamic world thinks.

Following a lesson on the monotheistic faiths, Saudi Arabian schoolchildren are asked to discuss "With what types of weapons should Muslims arm themselves against the Jews?" That question is part of an official textbook for 8th grade students which also emphasizes that "Jews and Christians were cursed by Allah and turned into apes and pigs," and that "The hour [the Day of Judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them."
http://memri.org/bin/media.cgi?ID=39202

David Mornin, who was arrested in November 2000, said that he was held in solitary confinement in a punishment cell for eight weeks “with the light burning all the time.” He told the Guardian that he too was subjected to physical abuse and threats while in interior ministry custody, in attempts to elicit a confession: “They flung me off the walls, punched me in the gut, kicked me in the ribcage... they hammered me. They threatened to gang rape my wife, to plant drugs on her, they said they would take me to the desert and cut my throat and leave me there.” He continued: “They kick you awake, make you sit down, then stand up about every 15 minutes.” Mornin also described how he was suspended: “They hung me from bars above the door by my handcuffs so I was just on the balls of my feet for 24 hours at a time. They did that on four occasions.” He said that when he was released he “had to write a thank you note to the king, and sign to say I had not been mistreated.”

Kelvin Hawkins, arrested in November 2000, told the Guardian he was not physically abused, possibly because his wife told Saudi authorities he had undergone a quadruple bypass. “What happened to me was sleep deprivation, I was hand cuffed, shackled and blindfolded and held in solitary confinement for three months,” he said. “Initially they tried to get me to confess to the bombings. After I confessed to running [an illegal] bar they stopped asking about the bombings,” he said.
http://hrw.org/press/2002/02/saudi020502.htm

 

[Frank Newgent]

Well, just to show off: Putri means daughter or princess ....

I was on Bali when Gus Dur or President Wahid was deposed. Megawati replaced him.

Liked the guy just for his having told their equivalent of the House of Representatives that "they were all lousy."

 

[Bjorn]

There are reasons the sharia isn't the law of the land everywhere. This doesn't mean that the sharia isn't widely accepted in the Muslim world as Allah's will for mankind.

Well, well.

You claim that sharia is widely accepted in the Muslim world as Allah's will. That might be so, but it certainly doesn't answer my question: If it is true, why don't they follow it?

They do amputate body parts in Saudi Arabia.

Sure - according to Amnesty International's website it happened something like 90 times in the last 18 years, or five times a year (and those lefties exaggerate anyhow). Either the Saudis are extremely law-abiding, or the sharia is not what criminals are punished by.

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/briefing/6.html

And people are executed for various crimes by beheading in the public square.

That was the preferred way of executing people in France until recently (maybe even now). In the US, we electrocute them.

In the public square? If the US media got it their way, it would be on prime time TV. In fact I would be surprised if no US TV channel has shown a beheading already, or tried to get permission to show an electrocution.

I think I can find members of this forum who have called for public execution more than once.

 

[Bjorn]

Baker,

Here I go again MEMRI is a good source on how the Arab and Islamic world thinks

Sure, and a neutral one as well - one of the comments on their site reads like this:

I am full of admiration for the work MEMRI has done … in its dedicated exposure of Arab antisemitism.

You didn't answer any of the questions I posted to you - how come they don't follow sharia if they all agree they want to?

How many infidels did they kill last year?

How come Genghis Jedi wasn't killed during his year-long stay and discussions on Islam?

 

[Baker]

Baker,
Sure, and a neutral one as well - one of the comments on their site reads like this:

They translate the articles word by word unless you can prove other wise.
No-one disputes the accuracy of their translations.

How many infidels did they kill last year?

How come Genghis Jedi wasn't killed during his year-long stay and discussions on Islam?

Yes in fact they just did a few hours ago haven’t you been watching the news?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86681,00.html

 

[Bjorn]

Yes in fact they just did a few hours ago haven’t you been watching the news?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86681,00.html

We are speaking about different things here.

The story you are posting links to are about people defined as terrorists even in Saudi Arabia, not about how Saudi Arabia is ruled or how people are punished when they commit crimes.

My questions to you were:

How come the majority of muslims don't punish people according to the sharia if they all agree they want to?

How many infidels did they kill last year?

How come Genghis Jedi wasn't killed during his year-long stay and discussions on Islam?

Baker, my sceptisism isn't about conservative religious people being stupid (christians or muslims, they are). However, the majority of muslims are very far from the picture you and some others on this board try to paint.

Show some statistics on amputations? Stonings? Beheadings? Maybe compare the execution rates in the world to the US rates?

The problems ARE there, but there is no reason to exaggerate or cheat.

 

[DrBenway]

You claim that sharia is widely accepted in the Muslim world as Allah's will. That might be so, but it certainly doesn't answer my question: If it is true, why don't they follow it?

The reasons are several, and vary from country to country. Essentially, the chief argument against full implementation of the sharia in many places is inexpedience.

Sure - according to Amnesty International's website it happened something like 90 times in the last 18 years, or five times a year (and those lefties exaggerate anyhow). Either the Saudis are extremely law-abiding, or the sharia is not what criminals are punished by.

The sharia is the law of the land in Saudia Arabia. That is not a disputed fact. Because it is a closed society, we cannot get reliable statistics upon its penal system. Below is a link to the US State Dept. with some info:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8296.htm

 

[hisham]

I am unable to find a freely-available searchable English translation of the Talmud on the internet, unfortunately, so checking these sources first hand may prove difficult.

I think you know the reason why you was unable to find a freely-available searchable English translation of the Talmud, maybe some people like MEMRI stuff will provide us a translation like this, but I wonder who they will work around subjects like:
"Alleged" Racism in the Talmud, how the Talmud describes the Christianity, Immorality in the Talmud, and many others …..?

 

[specious_reasons]

What is it that you are looking for besides what I have already showed you?
Here is the hadith.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/
This is a forum where you can get even more answers.
http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewforum.php?f=11

Well, all I'm looking for is for you to produce evidence of your claims. My entire point on this thread was that people on this forums are making claims about Islam which set off my BS meter.

You've provided evidence for your claim. I take the above to mean that you've already posted quotes you believe make your point. That's fine. I'll admit that what's been referenced so far is enough to start.

There's a fine line between combativeness and rational discussion on this topic, and I'm trying to keep it rational. I'll stop badgering you now.