Reference in the koran, please?

[DrBenway]

I think the distinguishing point would be when my (moderate) Muslim friends say that killing one person is killing all of humanity.

Killing one innocent person is like killing all humanity (al-Ma'idah 5:32).

The catch is in that word "innocent." A fundamentalist might not view a citizen of a country opposed to Islamic beliefs as an innocent.

 

[Mike B.]

Deuteronomy (and other similar quotes):

Not true?

Bjorn,

I don't want to be put in the place of defending Xianity, but those quotes are from the first 5 books of the Bible, which include the Mosaic Law. As far as I know not even fundie Xians wish to reinstate the Mosaic law. They believe that the resurrection of Christ did away with the law, or at leas that is what Paul told them.

The difference is that there are numerous Muslims that wish to put into practice the Shiarra law, which is very similar to the Mosaic Law. It is telling that some of the few things that Islam feel are good in the Bible are those first five books.

I think there is enough in the Quran or the Muslim tradition to allow a more rationalist approach to the religion. It is just the people that try to do that are shouted down or killed by the fundies.

 

[a_unique_person]

Bjorn,

I don't want to be put in the place of defending Xianity, but those quotes are from the first 5 books of the Bible, which include the Mosaic Law. As far as I know not even fundie Xians wish to reinstate the Mosaic law. They believe that the resurrection of Christ did away with the law, or at leas that is what Paul told them.

The difference is that there are numerous Muslims that wish to put into practice the Shiarra law, which is very similar to the Mosaic Law. It is telling that some of the few things that Islam feel are good in the Bible are those first five books.

I think there is enough in the Quran or the Muslim tradition to allow a more rationalist approach to the religion. It is just the people that try to do that are shouted down or killed by the fundies.

They are quite happy to, as I said before, rationalise away the bits that don't suit them, and follow the bits that do. The death penalty, for example, is very popular with fundies. Jesus would not have approved of it, but the old testament, 'eye for an eye' is trotted out quite regularly.

 

[Bjorn]

Mike B,

I don't want to be put in the place of defending Xianity, but those quotes are from the first 5 books of the Bible, which include the Mosaic Law.

Neither do I want to defend muslims, there are certainly plenty of issues to criticize (and more of them, IMHO, there than in Christianity).

However, I want to remind us that most of the claims I see about how 'muslims' believe this or that are wrong in the sense that extreme opinions or fundamentalistic viewpoints are put forward as something they all believe.

(Indonesia has more muslims than any other country, yet we never hear about anyone being stoned (no jokes about marijuana please) or having their hands cut off. They've had a female prime minister, as have at least one other muslim country (Jedi forbid the US will be led by a woman one day).

As far as I know not even fundie Xians wish to reinstate the Mosaic law.

Agreed, and yet the history of Christianity has been full of killings of infidels and I don't think they had difficulties defending what they did by quoting the Bible. You don't have to tell me it stopped a while ago, I know (although Christianity was far older as a religion than Islam is now, before the killings in the name of the religion stopped).

If the question is what the holy scriptures are saying, the two books are just as bad. If the question is do we practice killing people of another belief, the answer it that we both did, but the Christians seem to have stopped after 1500 years or so of doing so.

It is the people practicing Christianity that have changed, not the Bible.

The difference is that there are numerous Muslims that wish to put into practice the Shiarra law, which is very similar to the Mosaic Law.

Numerous, yes, but very far from all.

I have lived and worked for a long time in a muslim country and travelled quite a lot in eight of them. I have never, ever felt threathened because I was not a muslim.

Further, I want to point out the paradox that Genghis/Jedi, who claims that 'muslims' want to kill every non-believer, at the same time is telling us how he lived in muslim countries and studied Islam, sitting in mosques for hours discussing with the locals, taking pictures of himself with them.

Why didn't they kill him then?

 

[Baker]

However, I want to remind us that most of the claims I see about how 'muslims' believe this or that are wrong in the sense that extreme opinions or fundamentalistic viewpoints are put forward as something they all believe.

Muslim militants are practicing mainstream Islam. They are not an extremist minority. Terrorists have not corrupted their religion. Their religion itself is corrupt. Al-Qaeda is not the enemy. They are but a symptom of a much more sinister and widespread disease.
Terrorism is the legacy of Muhammad, not bin Laden. The reason of Al-Qaeda’s existence, its popularity, its goals, even the means it uses to terrorize us, are all right out of the koran.
Muslims are taught in their schools to hate Americans and Jews and to kill us. It’s preached in their mosques, written in their media.

 

[hisham]

Muslim militants are practicing mainstream Islam. They are not an extremist minority. Terrorists have not corrupted their religion. Their religion itself is corrupt. Al-Qaeda is not the enemy. They are but a symptom of a much more sinister and widespread disease.
Terrorism is the legacy of Muhammad, not bin Laden. The reason of Al-Qaeda’s existence, its popularity, its goals, even the means it uses to terrorize us, are all right out of the koran.
Muslims are taught in their schools to hate Americans and Jews and to kill us. It’s preached in their mosques, written in their media.

Am not religious, but here maybe we need to talk about the corruption in the other side, just one example" of thousands from Judaism's holiest book THE TALUD ":
If a goy killed a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew killed a goy he is not responsible.
Tosefta, Aboda Zara, VIII, 5

 

[specious_reasons]

Muslim militants are practicing mainstream Islam. They are not an extremist minority. Terrorists have not corrupted their religion. Their religion itself is corrupt. Al-Qaeda is not the enemy. They are but a symptom of a much more sinister and widespread disease.
Terrorism is the legacy of Muhammad, not bin Laden. The reason of Al-Qaeda’s existence, its popularity, its goals, even the means it uses to terrorize us, are all right out of the koran.
Muslims are taught in their schools to hate Americans and Jews and to kill us. It’s preached in their mosques, written in their media.

Right, this thread was started with the express purpose of proving that claim with references from the Koran.

Your claims:
1. Islam is corrupt.
2. The Koran advocates terrorism.

You've provided references in the Koran where it says to kill unbelievers. I haven't refuted those, because, frankly, I don't know how. Are you saying that what you've quoted proves Islam is corrupt from it's core? Are you saying that what you've already quoted clearly shows that it advocates terrorism?

All I want is references to back up such claims. If you can't provide them, what do you base your claims on?

 

[DrBenway]

(Indonesia has more muslims than any other country, yet we never hear about anyone being stoned (no jokes about marijuana please) or having their hands cut off. They've had a female prime minister, as have at least one other muslim country (Jedi forbid the US will be led by a woman one day).

Indonesia is not an Islamic state where Islamic law is put into practice. For an example of Islamic law in action, check out Saudi Arabia.

 

[JamesM]

If a goy killed a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew killed a goy he is not responsible.
Tosefta, Aboda Zara, VIII, 5

Have you studied the Talmud, Hisham, or have you merely taken this from the compilation of alleged quotations from Jewish law that abound on the internet? For a full list, this site seems as good as any.

A response to these quotes (which charges that most of them are fabrications) can be found here
If you can't be bothered to read them all, the quote given by Hisham is claimed to be genuine, but supposedly relates only to which type of court is responsible in murder cases.

I am unable to find a freely-available searchable English translation of the Talmud on the internet, unfortunately, so checking these sources first hand may prove difficult.

 

[DrBenway]

If a goy killed a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew killed a goy he is not responsible.
Tosefta, Aboda Zara, VIII, 5

There are many groups in the world today advocating for Islamic government. Examples include: Hamas, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Islamic Jihad, Hesballah, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Taliban, al Qaeda, Abu-Sayyaf, etc. There are political parties within several governments advocating for Islamic law. Islamic courts have jurisdiction in Pakistan, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Malaysia, Sudan, etc. In Saudi Arabia, the Qu'ran is the national constitution.

In an Islamic court, the testimony of a non-Muslim is valued at only 50% of the testimony of a Muslim. In cases where it's one man's word against another, Islamic courts will always rule in favor of the Muslim over the non-Muslim.

Name one organized group in favor of the making the "Jews can kill goyim without guilt" idea you cite above. the law of the land in any country today.

 

[Baker]

Right, this thread was started with the express purpose of proving that claim with references from the Koran.

Your claims:
1. Islam is corrupt.
2. The Koran advocates terrorism.

You've provided references in the Koran where it says to kill unbelievers. I haven't refuted those, because, frankly, I don't know how. Are you saying that what you've quoted proves Islam is corrupt from it's core? Are you saying that what you've already quoted clearly shows that it advocates terrorism?

All I want is references to back up such claims. If you can't provide them, what do you base your claims on?

Yes that is how Islamic terrorist justify killing by quoting the koran.
Here is the Qatari television channel Al-Jazeera interviewed Saudi sheikh Mohsin Al-'Awaji.
This should help you out on the topic.

We are proud that they define us as someone who strikes terror into the heart of the enemies of Allah and our enemies [a paraphrase of a Koranic verse], but not according to the definition they [the Americans] want. America wants us to define terror according to its criteria. The American definition of terror is that anyone who resists America's colonialist and religious interests is a terrorist…"

"The Saudis maintain that the Arabian peninsula is the resting place of the lions from which the leaders emerged. Those who confront America in Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Kashmir are the cubs of those lions. [The Saudis] who lead the Jihad in the world left without asking the permission of the rulers or the world. They broke through the barriers to leave. They run in pursuit of death, while George Bush and his administration fled the White House, at a certain point, when they were targeted."

"The Saudis believe that the glory of the [Islamic] nation appeared when our Prophet taught us the industry of death – when he taught us how to create death. Then life became cheap in our eyes… When one of the sons of our nation is killed, he says: 'I won,' and the master of the Ka'aba swears that he had won. This we see as the industry of death. We in Saudi society and in other Islamic societies have finally realized that this is the right path to tread in order to deal with today's deadly strategic weapons. If America has intercontinental missiles and bombs, then our bombs are the Jihad fighters, whom America has called 'suicide attackers' and we call 'martyrs.' We will develop them because we see them as a strategic weapon
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=saudiarabia&ID=SP40002

 

[DrBenway]

I have lived and worked for a long time in a muslim country and travelled quite a lot in eight of them. I have never, ever felt threathened because I was not a muslim.

If you were a woman in western attire, or if you were a Christian wearning a cross around your neck, or openly carrying a Bible, you might have felt threatened.

 

[DrBenway]

However, I want to remind us that most of the claims I see about how 'muslims' believe this or that are wrong in the sense that extreme opinions or fundamentalistic viewpoints are put forward as something they all believe.

"All" is obviously an overstatement. However, it would be a mistake to equate those who support the notion that Islamic law ought to be the law of the land with a fringe, minor faction, of the Islamic world. Sunni Islam, which is considered the most mainstream form (practiced by 85% of the Muslims in the world), has a clearly articulated definition of Islamic Law. These laws are not the product of some new, fringe cult. They're centuries old. They've been continuously practiced in parts of the Arab world since the birth of Islam.

 

[specious_reasons]

Yes that is how Islamic terrorist justify killing by quoting the koran.
Here is the Qatari television channel Al-Jazeera interviewed Saudi sheikh Mohsin Al-'Awaji.
This should help you out on the topic.

That the terrorists quote the Koran is, to this discussion, irrelevant. Do you disagree that you have just made the following claims?

1. Islam is corrupt.
2. The Koran advocates terrorism.

There must be something that informs your opinion on this. I would assume that the source document itself has evidence of "corruption", as well as passages which advocate terrorism.

Do you claim that your previously quotes scriptures prove this?

The passage from your quote that interested me the most was this:

"The Saudis believe that the glory of the [Islamic] nation appeared when our Prophet taught us the industry of death – when he taught us how to create death. Then life became cheap in our eyes… When one of the sons of our nation is killed, he says: 'I won,' and the master of the Ka'aba swears that he had won. This we see as the industry of death.

Does anyone know how the Prophet taught Muslims "the industry of death"? Obviously, this would be a sign of corruption from the source. Of course, I take everything this a**hole says with a grain of salt.

 

[Baker]

That the terrorists quote the Koran is, to this discussion, irrelevant. Do you disagree that you have just made the following claims?

1. Islam is corrupt.
2. The Koran advocates terrorism.

There must be something that informs your opinion on this. I would assume that the source document itself has evidence of "corruption", as well as passages which advocate terrorism.

Do you claim that your previously quotes scriptures prove this?

Yes that is correct as well as the Saudi sheikh’s comments.
These are just a few more verses from the Koran you might need.
005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


008.059
YUSUFALI: Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
PICKTHAL: And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.
SHAKIR: And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.

Does anyone know how the Prophet taught Muslims "the industry of death"? Obviously, this would be a sign of corruption from the source. Of course, I take everything this a**hole says with a grain of salt.

Did you click on the link and read the entire interview? MEMRI translates the media in the middle east it shows you how the Arabs and Islam think from their own words.

 

[specious_reasons]

Yes that is correct as well as the Saudi sheikh’s comments.
These are just a few more verses from the Koran you might need.

Did you click on the link and read the entire interview? MEMRI translates the media in the middle east it shows you how the Arabs and Islam think from their own words.

Thanks for the additional quotes. Although, I don't understand why 008.059 shows anything corrupt, evil, or advocates terrorism.

No, I didn't read the interview, just to be stubborn. I'm looking for the people who make claims against the Koran show their proof.

I think it's fairly clear that Islam, in many forms of its practice, is evil. However, you, among others, have claimed that not only is the practice evil, but the source advocates it. I would like to see proof that this is what the Koran says.

...I apologize in advance if I'm getting antagonistic about this.

 

[renata]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by hisham

For Jews the situation is more complicated and they have many sources because Judaism was created by the Persians.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Does anyone else think this claim deserves its own thread?

Yes, and it does: The Conversation about Israel/Arab relations. In that thread, I posed some questions about this claim, and inherent contradictions in it- so far, no answer on that topic.

 

[DrBenway]

I would like to see proof that this is what the Koran says.

If the Qu'ran were the sole source of divine guidance for Muslims, I think it wouldn't be too difficult to rationalize away the nasty bits, using an argument like, "those verses were specific to the situation Muhammad faced at that time..." Unfortunately, there's also the Sunna, or the recorded sayings and deeds of the Prophet. These sayings and deeds are collected in several books. Islamic Law is based upon both the Qu'ran and the Sunna.

The Shi'ites reject some of the books the Sunnis accept.

 

[specious_reasons]

If the Qu'ran were the sole source of divine guidance for Muslims, I think it wouldn't be too difficult to rationalize away the nasty bits, using an argument like, "those verses were specific to the situation Muhammad faced at that time..." Unfortunately, there's also the Sunna, or the recorded sayings and deeds of the Prophet. These sayings and deeds are collected in several books. Islamic Law is based upon both the Qu'ran and the Sunna.

The Shi'ites reject some of the books the Sunnis accept.

I am aware of the Sunna, but know next to nothing about it. I'll gladly accept references from that, too. My knowledge of Islam seems to be far inferior to yours, DrBenway, and my only personal sources are from moderate (liberal) American muslims. They, of course, have an agenda to show me how reasonable their religion is.

I don't really want to single out Baker, since he's been a good sport on this thread, but he has made the claim that the Koran advocates terrorism. Or that the Koran is corrupt or evil. Others on the board have made similar claims. Personally, my BS meter starts going off the scale when this is said.

Of course, this thread has provided me with some substance to look into. As of right now, the given references,
- seem to advocate violence, especially against non-believers.
- can lump Christians in with the non-believers.

Fair summary?

 

[DrBenway]

I am aware of the Sunna, but know next to nothing about it. I'll gladly accept references from that, too.

I'll find you some links. But I don't think the barbaric stuff is ultimately as harmful as these two ideas:

1. the notion that apostasy is a capital crime under Islamic law
2. the strict prohibition against bid'ah, or innovation.

If a Muslim cannot choose to be a non-Muslim without fear of death threats, what happens to any reformation movement within the Islamic world?

If any movement to change Islamic law is termed bid'ah, a crime also considered worthy of death, what happens to a reformer?

I'm more interested in how we can help mellow Muslims survive and carry on as mellow folk, than I am in condemning Islam entirely.

However, I think that sometimes a strong condemnation of certain Islamic beliefs and practices is helpful to the mellow Muslims out there. Westerners who apologize for Islam and praise it as a "religion of peace," strengthen the fundamentalist's sense of righteousness, and encourage persecution of the moderates in the Islamic world.