Merged Recent climate observations disagreement with projections

macdoc said:
I answered regarding Lindzen in case you missed it...I'll repeat it in case you did not quite get the gist of it
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Sure, direct me to it, appreciate it...only interested in your view on the matter.
 
Wangler said:
Could you explain to me? Longwave would be considered infrared, right?
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Low energy infrared yes. Near infrared is general considered to be SW.

What I think mhaze is getting at is that most (all?) CC models handle SW feedback poorly.
 
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Wangler said:
Could you explain to me? Longwave would be considered infrared, right?
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Yes, infrared is very weak energy compared to shortwave . Beers law shows infrared only goes to or from a fraction of a mm in sea water, where we all know visible light goes 50-100 feet down. EG a difference in ability to move energy.

But all that energy into sea water , how can it get back out? Only through infrared , heat radiation. Lindzen says this is not happening , instead it is visible light. An example would be clouds reflecting.
 
mhaze said:
Sure, direct me to it, appreciate it...only interested in your view on the matter.
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He’s talking about his little laughing dog.

Took me a while too. I’m guessing you just tune all that extraneous stuff in macdoc’s posts out (as I do also).
 
mhaze said:
Yes, infrared is very weak energy compared to shortwave . Beers law shows infrared only goes to or from a fraction of a mm in sea water, where we all know visible light goes 50-100 feet down. EG a difference in ability to move energy.

But all that energy into sea water , how can it get back out? Only through infrared , heat radiation. Lindzen says this is not happening , instead it is visible light. An example would be clouds reflecting.
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So, the oceans aren't realizing a large buildup of energy, because we don't see much heat radiation from the oceans?

So how can clouds reflecting get heat back out of the ocean? I am sorry, but I am still confused.
 
Wangler said:
So how can clouds reflecting get heat back out of the ocean?
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They can't, not directly. But I'm guessing the claim is that clouds reduce the incident energy (in the form of shortwave radiation) and skew the outgoing longwave equation towards the side of total energy loss, ie shaded ocean gets cooler.

Seems somewhat logical.
 
Careful - he;s slipping in the usual nonsense....

Individual photon energy is higher for shorter wavelengths.

If the bulk of the energy is in IR range then the bulk of the energy is transmitted that way....

He's always had energy transforms issues.....

Wangler consider evaporation in your conceptualization - radiation is only one method of energy transport...

Easy to understand article here
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wlatent.htm

The ability to penetrate to depth might be important to biota but is minor in the energy exchange equations....:garfield:

Some decent stuff here about how the ocean drives the energy transforms

snip

The ocean drives the atmospheric circulation by heating the atmosphere, mostly in the tropics.

1. Most of the sunlight absorbed by earth is absorbed at the top of the tropical ocean. The atmosphere does not absorb much sunlight. It is too transparent. Think of a cold, sunny, winter day at your school. All day long, the sun shines on the outside, but the air stays cold. But if you wear a black coat outside and stand out of the wind, the sun will quickly warm up your coat. Sunlight passes through the air and warms the surface of the ocean, just as it warms the surface of your coat. Most of the ocean is a deep navy blue, almost black. It absorbs 98% of the solar radiation when the sun is high in the sky.


2. The ocean loses heat by evaporation (the technical term is latent heat release). Think of this as the ocean sweating. Trade winds carry the evaporated water vapor to the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone where it condenses as rain. Condensation releases the latent heat and warms the air. Warm air rises, further drawing in warm wet air, releasing more heat. Large areas of the tropical ocean get more than 3 m (115 inches) of rain each year (8 mm/day in the figure below).
1. So much heat is released by rain in the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone that it drives much of the atmospheric circulation. This circulation is called the Hadley circulation.
2. Heat released by rain in higher latitudes drives storms and winds. 3. Heat released by rain in hurricanes and thunderstorms drives these storms
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http://oceanworld.tamu.edu/resources/oceanography-book/oceansandclimate.htm


knowing that.....what do YOU think will happen in the atmosphere with record world ocean temps occurring...???

AP on record ocean warming: “Breaking heat records in water is more ominous as a sign of global warming than breaking temperature marks on land.”
August 21, 2009
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http://climateprogress.org/2009/08/...g-breaking-heat-records-in-water-temperature/
 
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macdoc said:
Individual photon energy is higher for shorter wavelengths.
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True

If the bulk of the energy is in IR range then the bulk of the energy is transmitted that way....
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Okay

- radiation is only one method of energy transport...
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Agreed

The ability to penetrate to depth might be important to biota but is minor in the energy exchange equations...
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Are you sure? I thought I saw somewhere where only 50-60% of the solar energy is absorbed in the first 1m of ocean..the rest goes down into the tens of meters. Methinks 40-50% of the solar irradiance is not a minor effect in the energy balance calculations.

knowing that.....what do YOU think will happen in the atmosphere with record world ocean temps occurring...???
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Well, the same weather patterns that are present in an El Nino event come to mind. Or something similar.

In longer climatic terms, I would look the other way around, as I thought that ocean temperature followed (lag) atmospheric temperatures.
 
Wangler said:
Are you sure? I thought I saw somewhere where only 50-60% of the solar energy is absorbed in the first 1m of ocean..the rest goes down into the tens of meters. Methinks 40-50% of the solar irradiance is not a minor effect in the energy balance calculations.
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This would seem to indicate your memory is more correct than macdoc assertation. I can't speak for the validity of the book but I doubt it's too far wrong.
 
macdoc said:
Careful - he;s slipping in the usual nonsense....

Individual photon energy is higher for shorter wavelengths.

If the bulk of the energy is in IR range then the bulk of the energy is transmitted that way.......
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But it's not.

DogB said:
They can't, not directly. But I'm guessing the claim is that clouds reduce the incident energy (in the form of shortwave radiation) and skew the outgoing longwave equation towards the side of total energy loss, ie shaded ocean gets cooler.

Seems somewhat logical.
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This is inferential, of course, since that article was about radiation. But let's say more evaporation, more clouds, less inbound visible light.
 
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I think what have here is a demonstration of who the gullible can be mislead and taken advantage of using psuedo-science. If air temperature couldn’t warm up water, as mhaze is trying to suggest, then all you would need to do to keep water cold is store in a dark room. The whole notion is patently absurd, but apparently some people really want to believe…

The dominant process in ocean heat content is this: heat goes in via visible light, and escapes though the oceans surface. The rate at which it can escape is a direct function of the temperature of the surrounding air. Higher air temperature, less heat gets out, water temperature rises, lower air temperature, more heat escapes and water temperature drops.
 
lomiller said:
If air temperature couldn’t warm up water, as mhaze is trying to suggest, then all you would need to do to keep water cold is store in a dark room. The whole notion is patently absurd, but apparently some people really want to believe…
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Did Mhaze actual suggest that air temperature couldn't warm up water?
 
Wangler said:
Did Mhaze actual suggest that air temperature couldn't warm up water?
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Did he not get there yet? Sometimes when you seen these things enough you start debunking the woo before someone to actually saying it.

this

while the feedback in the models is mostly from longwave radiation.
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is a frequently used setup for the claim that long wave radiation can't change ocean temperature, and therefore can't have any impact on the earths climate. I believe it's an argument mhaze has used before, but I guess I could be confusing him with someone else.
 
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lomiller said:
....is a frequently used setup for the claim that long wave radiation can't change ocean temperature, and therefore can't have any impact on the earths climate.
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It would be interesting to see that point of view's physical explaination, as that doesn't seem right.
 
Wangler said:
Did Mhaze actual suggest that air temperature couldn't warm up water?
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No, but neither do I see the relevance of that.

At all.

I think we only discussed heat movement out of the oceans and into space.
 
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